Timeline for Does the Catholic Church have a contingency plan for the case that the pope and all cardinals are dead?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
31 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| May 18, 2020 at 0:00 | history | tweeted | twitter.com/StackChristian/status/1262171091725889539 | ||
| May 17, 2020 at 21:03 | history | reopened | Ken Graham♦ catholicism Users with the catholicism badge or a synonym can single-handedly close catholicism questions as duplicates and reopen them as needed. | ||
| May 17, 2020 at 20:02 | vote | accept | WoJ | ||
| May 17, 2020 at 9:38 | comment | added | WoJ | @RadzMatthewC.Brown: this requires that "someone" makes that decision , then decides when and whom to call, and generally speaking - set the new rules. This is in contrast with the death of a Pope where all of the activities are planned and regulated so I am surprised that more contingency is not built-in (especially that there are lots of examples available) | |
| May 17, 2020 at 2:32 | history | duplicates list edited | Geremia | duplicates list edited from What would the Catholic Church's hierarchy look like without the Vatican? to What would the Catholic Church's hierarchy look like without the Vatican?, Existence of Catholic Church without hierarchy | |
| May 17, 2020 at 2:28 | history | closed |
Matt Gutting curiousdannii♦ GratefulDisciple Geremia catholicism Users with the catholicism badge or a synonym can single-handedly close catholicism questions as duplicates and reopen them as needed. |
Duplicate of What would the Catholic Church's hierarchy look like without the Vatican? | |
| May 16, 2020 at 14:39 | comment | added | R. Brown | perhaps, simply rebuild the voting system found in Vatican and call every living cardinal around the world and start the voting in the absence of the dead Pope | |
| May 16, 2020 at 12:18 | comment | added | WoJ | @K-HB (cont'd) from the whole population, and the whole population elects the new rulers. This is in sharp contract with a situation where both the electors and the candidate are from a small group (120 people) who is supposed to be all together at some point (at least during the papal elections). There is apparently no contingency plan when this small amount of people disappear at once. | |
| May 16, 2020 at 12:18 | comment | added | WoJ | @K-HB: yes, there is a limit to the chain. There is however a difference between a state such as Germany (and possible especially like Germany) which is highly decentralized across the Lands and should all those people die at once, there would be a much bigger issue at hand. If you take the example of the 2010 accident of the Polish president who was flying with a sizable chunk of the senior administration, their death was not impacting to the functioning of the country: the 3rd in the chain (IIRC) took over to plan elections where the candidates come | |
| May 16, 2020 at 8:54 | comment | added | K-HB | @WoJ I question your assumption that most countries have such a plan. E.g. Germany has none if all 1000-1500 memebers of the governments and parliaments of federal and state level are dead. I'm sure someone would hold elections and restart the system. But this would not be constitutional in a strong sense of the word. It would be outside the existing system, like a revolution. | |
| May 15, 2020 at 15:06 | comment | added | user46876 | Let us continue this discussion in chat. | |
| May 15, 2020 at 15:00 | comment | added | eques | @Lucian indeed but that's the point. Nothing makes it automatic. It's not a custom equivalent to force of law and thus in absence of a Pope, none of their holders would become cardinals (assuming a new incumbent was appointed other than by the Pope) and thus no one would be left in the College to elect a new Pope | |
| May 15, 2020 at 14:50 | comment | added | user46876 | @eques: The Pope has the authority to do as he well pleases; but, in the absence of such well-established and widely-acknowledged veto powers, there have to have been, throughout Church history, sees (of various dioceses and parishes - around Italy, at the very least) which, during the last n centuries (take your pick), have had their occupant (almost) always made cardinal... no ? | |
| May 15, 2020 at 14:33 | comment | added | eques | @Lucian none of them in a way that would do anything automatic. No Bishop is automatically made a Cardinal on appointment (Francis has freely ignored the custom around this). No titular Church necessarily has a Cardinal at any point, etc | |
| May 15, 2020 at 14:27 | comment | added | user46876 | @eques: The question then becomes: Which dioceses and parishes have this title automatically bestowed upon their sees, either de jure, by official canon law, or de facto, by century-long practice ? | |
| May 15, 2020 at 14:06 | comment | added | eques | @KenGraham note though that the Patriarch of Venice doesn't wear red because he is a patriarch but due to special rights attached to that see. The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem for example doesn't have the right to wear red. | |
| May 15, 2020 at 14:05 | comment | added | eques | @Lucian except, Cardinals are only appointed by the Pope. None of the Patriarchs of the East have them ex officio, so in the situation described, the Eastern Patriarchs who are Cardinals would have presumably been in Rome and thus die. A successor to their sees would not become Cardinal automatically and thus couldn't create a new conclave | |
| May 15, 2020 at 2:35 | answer | added | Ken Graham♦ | timeline score: 6 | |
| May 15, 2020 at 0:59 | comment | added | user46876 | @KenGraham: I also agree with Eques, but, since the Pope has deemed it fit to bestow the cardinalship upon the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Patriarchs, and since these sees, in turn, will be filled up by way of usual ordination to the bishopric, whenever they are unoccupied, it then follows that there will be at least that many new Cardinals once all others have been wiped out. Similarly for Italian clergy, whose titular sees or parishes have, for many centuries, worn that distinction. That should be enough to provide a head start. | |
| May 15, 2020 at 0:42 | comment | added | Ken Graham♦ | Attention close voters of the duplicate! @MattGutting Actually that is not a duplicate because if Rome was destroyed and the Roman Curia, there would still be enough cardinals worldwide to restore the papacy. This question deals with the absolute death of all cardinals, which the supposedly duplicate does not state! | |
| May 15, 2020 at 0:18 | comment | added | Ken Graham♦ | @Lucian I must agree with Eques! There exists patriarchs in the West, such as the Patriarch of Venice, even if he is not a Cardinal. He is however permitted to wear a natural red soutane, but not a scarlet red such as true cardinals. The Archbishop of Quebec City is also the Primate of Canada. | |
| May 14, 2020 at 22:55 | review | Close votes | |||
| May 17, 2020 at 2:33 | |||||
| May 14, 2020 at 20:42 | comment | added | KorvinStarmast | @Lucian There's the start of an answer. Care to follow through? | |
| S May 14, 2020 at 19:22 | history | suggested | Machavity |
Added relevant tags
|
|
| May 14, 2020 at 19:14 | comment | added | eques | @Lucian I'm not sure where you derive that, but Cardinals are not really the equivalent absolutely; they aren't even strictly required to be bishops. Also the Cardinals are clergy of Rome which originally elected the Pope and then it was restricted to the Cardinals. | |
| May 14, 2020 at 16:09 | review | Suggested edits | |||
| S May 14, 2020 at 19:22 | |||||
| May 14, 2020 at 15:11 | comment | added | user46876 | Cardinals in the West are the equivalent of Patriarchs in the East. And Patriarchs in the East are the bishops whose see is in that country's capital city. So, in the absence of a Pope, the vacant sees of each Western capital will most likely be filled up by way of usual ordinations (to the bishopric), and, afterwards, once occupied, these sees will, in turn, elect a new Pope. | |
| May 14, 2020 at 14:18 | comment | added | WoJ | @KenGraham: I really do hope so as well :) It actually arose from a discussion with my son when he was going through the structure of the French administration, and who is in charge of what. This made me wonder a lot about organizations which do not have (I believe) the approach of "we have plenty of people who will elect someone from that population though an established process, so this is just a matter of defining a chain of people who will trigger this election which is not different from other elections (without the disaster part)". I am really curious about that - thanks for chiming in | |
| May 14, 2020 at 13:47 | comment | added | Ken Graham♦ | Hope this question is not closed over the weekend. I would like to answer it, but it will take time. | |
| May 14, 2020 at 12:51 | review | First posts | |||
| May 14, 2020 at 20:42 | |||||
| May 14, 2020 at 12:47 | history | asked | WoJ | CC BY-SA 4.0 |