Timeline for How do non-trinitarians reconcile Jesus' claims to be God, and the Father to be God, with the requirement for monotheism?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
29 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Oct 26, 2022 at 16:21 | comment | added | Mike Borden | I believe that is, indeed, an addition:) | |
| Oct 26, 2022 at 16:08 | comment | added | Biblasia | @MikeBorden And that is just as I read this passage. It is evident from the context that Jesus is trying to correct the disciples' misconceptions about spirits, in addition to setting them straight as to his own identity. | |
| Oct 26, 2022 at 16:06 | comment | added | Mike Borden | Just as you say; Jesus often responds to the deeper, unasked question. The thing is, when Jesus answers that way, it is evident from the context not despite the context. | |
| Oct 26, 2022 at 16:01 | comment | added | Biblasia | @MikeBorden. Be careful. Jesus regularly answers questions that were not asked. He goes straight to the real point of something, and would sometimes confuse the disciples as to why he had said something. Nicodemus asked Jesus a question that got one of those off-the-wall responses as well--but Jesus was going straight to the real heart of the issue, cutting away the preliminaries. Such was his habit. While context is important, it is no replacement for common sense nor spiritual discernment. Jesus may very well have used the opportunity to express an important spiritual truth. | |
| Oct 26, 2022 at 15:53 | comment | added | Mike Borden | You cannot make the disciples think they had seen a spirit and Jesus respond to that thought by denying that he is God unless you completely disregard the context of the passage. In Christ one is both flesh and spirit, having been born and then born again. The hard distinction you make evaporates in Christ. | |
| Oct 26, 2022 at 15:40 | comment | added | Biblasia | @MikeBorden The word "pneuma" is contrasted with flesh in the context of beings. Either one is flesh or one is spirit. This is a different context/usage than when speaking of one's own "spirit" in the context of body+spirit = soul / person. In that context, spirit might refer to merely the breath, though there is another Greek word that is very closely related as well. Spirits of humans are not separate, "out of body" beings--the human context differs from that of the "elohim" (to use a Hebraism). Yes, angels are spirits--but they are not merely breath. As always, context is meaningful. | |
| Oct 26, 2022 at 15:18 | comment | added | Mike Borden | The point is that (v. 37) they thought they had seen a "pneuma" and Jesus comforted them (v. 39) that he was not a "pneuma". Contextually, this has nothing to do with the nature of deity. God is "pneuma", that is true, but so are angels and there were also some in prison (1 Peter 3:19). Not every "pneuma" is God. | |
| Oct 26, 2022 at 1:33 | comment | added | steveowen | @Biblasia I'm afraid you have to grasp the difference between figurative and literal. The Gospels explain how and when Jesus began - do you disregard their simple revelation? Jesus was figuratively slain because he was always the core of God's plan of salvation before sin even happened. We know when Jesus was slain - ~2000 years ago! | |
| Oct 26, 2022 at 1:17 | comment | added | Biblasia | @steveowen John 3:16 tells us that God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son. He could not have given us a son He did not have. Revelation 13:8 tells us that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world--indicating there was a Lamb to be slain at the time of Creation. | |
| Oct 26, 2022 at 1:07 | comment | added | steveowen | @Biblasia most of your last comment is opinion not supported by scripture. Michael is not a created being? *Jesus has always been God's "Son"? | |
| Oct 25, 2022 at 23:57 | comment | added | Biblasia | @stkuser I believe that Jesus' divinity and Michael are one and the same, and that Michael is God's manifestation to His creatures, God Himself being invisible even to angels. It is through Michael/Jesus that God has chosen to reveal himself throughout eternity. No one has seen God, for He is invisible (see 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16; John 1:18). As "Michael", Jesus has always been God's "Son"--but Michael is not a created being, he has always existed. Only Jesus' humanity could be tempted and subject to death--God cannot be tempted. The exact nature of God is a mystery we should not seek to penetrate. | |
| Oct 25, 2022 at 23:19 | comment | added | steveowen | @stkuser If Satan is the 'god' of this world, we can say Jesus is also a god - but he cannot be THE God because THE God is Jesus' God. John 20:17 I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ Jesus the firstborn of all creation Col 1:15, Ram 8:29 means he is the first human to go from mortality to immortality. These things are 'not what I believe', but what the Bible explicitly teaches. | |
| Oct 25, 2022 at 21:51 | comment | added | steveowen | Perhaps hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/59811/… | |
| Oct 25, 2022 at 20:18 | comment | added | steveowen | @stkuser Unfortunately you have a traditional premise through which the scriptures are read. The Gospels state how and when Jesus originated - nothing about him being before that. Persisting with his pre-existence creates many contradictions. Allowing scripture to interpret scripture solves all such issues. Please see hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/69276/… | |
| Oct 25, 2022 at 16:44 | comment | added | Read Less Pray More | Its really great to see the true Monotheist coming out in strength and unity to explain very simply who is our God and Father. We have nothing to hide...We welcome the tough questions because we walk in the light. Ask away..... challenge us because iron sharpens iron. | |
| Oct 25, 2022 at 12:53 | comment | added | Biblasia | @MikeBorden "Did the disciples think they had seen God?" John 1:18 is pretty clear on this point: "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18, KJV). That's quite definitive, written by John, ostensibly the disciple closest to Jesus. | |
| Oct 25, 2022 at 12:49 | comment | added | Biblasia | @MikeBorden A Bible scholar should know that "pneuma" has different senses of meaning, depending on context. So does "soul" in English, which in many contexts applies only to humans, in some contexts to the human passions or thoughts, and in some contexts it applies even to animals. But these statements of Jesus directly address the substance of the one to whom Jesus refers, i.e. the actually being, and it is with direct, definition-type, statements as in "God is spirit" and "a spirit does not have flesh...as ye see me have", i.e. "I am not (a) spirit." These usages are fully parallel. | |
| Oct 25, 2022 at 12:32 | comment | added | Mike Borden | Luke 24:37 Did the disciples think they had seen God? You would have to demonstrate that each use of pneuma refers to God for your point to carry weight (Hebrews 1:14). Context is extremely important for proper exegesis. | |
| Oct 25, 2022 at 7:47 | comment | added | steveowen | @stkuser Jesus was a spirit person before being a human on the earth. This is opinion and not a scriptural idea. | |
| Oct 24, 2022 at 13:01 | comment | added | Biblasia | @MikeBorden The word Jesus used in all these passages is "pneuma" in Greek. Jesus said he was not "pneuma" and that God was "pneuma." Some translations obscure this by translating as "ghost" in place of "spirit." | |
| Oct 24, 2022 at 12:56 | comment | added | Mike Borden | Appearing in the upper room, Jesus needed to comfort the disciples that he was not a ghost. He is not speaking regarding deity here but merely the fact that he appeared in a locked room. He was born without sin and had the fullness of deity in him... that is an advantage and thankfully we can partake of it. We are born again and then we can persevere to the end because the spirit of Christ is in us. That is the hope of glory...Christ in us. To follow some merely human example is folly and vanity, for the flesh is too weak. | |
| Oct 24, 2022 at 12:43 | comment | added | Biblasia | @MikeBorden Jesus came as our Example. When God inhabited his "temple," it was an example of how God will dwell in our body temples, too. It is when God's spirit dwells in us that we are enabled to be overcomers and obedient to God's will. If, however, we believe that Jesus was God, then we presume that he had some unfair advantage over us that we cannot have, and this is one of Satan's best tools to keep us from persevering--from enduring to the end. We give up too quickly, thinking that "to err is human." Thus this theological error is verily tragic and dangerous. The Man--1 Tim. 2:5. | |
| Oct 24, 2022 at 12:39 | comment | added | Biblasia | @MikeBorden When you say Jesus is God, you deny that he could possibly have been flesh, because Jesus taught plainly that God is (a) spirit, and that he himself was not (a) spirit. Either you believe Jesus when he says he has flesh and bones, or you do not. Either you believe Jesus when he says he is not a spirit, or you do not. It is not possible to have it both ways because Jesus himself was too clear on it. He said he was not a spirit, but that God is a spirit. If you believe the Man himself, you accept that he was come in the flesh, and was not God. | |
| Oct 24, 2022 at 12:34 | comment | added | Mike Borden | Jesus Christ in/to to flesh having come is what 1 John 4 says. It does not say that he suddenly began to exist but that he came in flesh. This is what the spirit of antichrist will not confess. | |
| Oct 24, 2022 at 12:33 | comment | added | Mike Borden | What would be the purpose of saying "without measure" and "all the fullness" if not to set Christ apart from all others. God "dwelled" in a special way in the temple, even though the spirit is everywhere present, and Jews went there to approach God. Now God dwells in a temple of flesh, made without hands, and when one "goes to" Jesus one "goes to" God. This union of God (spirit) and temple (flesh) is complete and permanent. | |
| Oct 24, 2022 at 11:56 | comment | added | Biblasia | @MikeBorden Can God divide His spirit and have only part of it inhabit Christ? Nothing that I said above would even hint at such a thing. In fact, you have not gone quite far enough even in your statement here, because the Bible says: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:9). What you might, however, be mindful of is that God is spirit, and can be everywhere present. God is not limited to a specific location. Jesus is a man in whom God dwelt. Jesus died, but God cannot, and did not die. Had Jesus been God, he could also never have been tempted (James 1:13). | |
| Oct 24, 2022 at 11:40 | comment | added | Mike Borden | Jesus had the spirit of God without measure (John 3:34). All of God (who is spirit) dwelt in Jesus (who is flesh). The dichotomy you try to draw in your "spirit of antichrist" proof does not exist...God is spirit and Jesus is both. | |
| Oct 24, 2022 at 4:22 | history | edited | Biblasia | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Corrected formatting of Bible quote
|
| Oct 23, 2022 at 23:28 | history | answered | Biblasia | CC BY-SA 4.0 |