Timeline for How do Christians who believe that the saints enter a blissful state as soon as they die explain David, Isaiah & Job's pessimistic outlook on death?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
41 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jan 27, 2022 at 21:37 | comment | added | Rajesh | You had said that one can make a case for Job not believing that a resurrection is possible, and thus his words are unreliable as a foundation for afterlife theology(I wasn't making them one, but either way). Can you give me some details? What suggests that Job might not believe in a resurrection? | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 21:31 | comment | added | user50422 | @Rajesh - if at least one element in the process of revelation is supernatural, the whole thing can be classified as supernatural. In a vision, you can still use your brain and think about it, and then write it down through natural means. Does that make it natural? Matthew witnessed tons of supernatural things, so he received supernatural revelations. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 21:29 | comment | added | user50422 |
God did not directly intervene using supernatural powers to reveal anything to Matthew. Matthew simply saw with his regular eyes what was happening, as did many, many other people - And what was happening was supernatural! The miracles of Jesus were supernatural! The resurrection of Jesus was supernatural!
|
|
| Jan 27, 2022 at 21:28 | comment | added | user50422 |
For example, God did not intervene to reveal hidden knowledge to Matthew. All Matthew did was look with his own eyes at what was happening. - And that's exactly the way God revealed hidden knowledge to Matthew! Read Matthew 13:17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
|
|
| Jan 27, 2022 at 21:18 | comment | added | user50422 | The whole testimony of Matthew is impregnated with the supernatural. The whole ministry of Jesus, which he witnessed, was supernatural. The resurrection was supernatural. Matthew being prompted to be a witness was also supernatural. And he gained eyewitness knowledge through that. And he wrote it down. That's supernatural revelation of information from God to Matthew, and through Matthew to the rest of the world through his gospel. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 21:16 | comment | added | user50422 |
it's not "God providentially making someone witness something", it's God revealing something to someone through a vision or dream or an OBE as you are constantly talking about - 1) those are examples of how God can intervene supernaturally in order to communicate a message to you, but those examples are by no means exhaustive; 2) even in those examples, you are still witnessing something. Back to your example of Matthew: Matthew was very much in touch with the supernatural. He witnessed the supernatural ministry of Jesus, who was sent by God the Father.
|
|
| Jan 27, 2022 at 18:38 | comment | added | user50422 | @Rajesh - I disagree with your disagreement regarding No. 2. God certainly intervened supernaturally in the process of having Matthew become an eyewitness. Supernatural things happened all the time during the onset of Christianity and God providentially made it so that Matthew witnessed them. So you have all the ingredients: 1) supernatural/divine intervention and 2) Matthew gaining new information that he previously didn't know. All providentially orchestrated by God. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 18:21 | comment | added | user50422 | 2 Peter 1:20 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. - that's supernatural. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 18:20 | comment | added | user50422 | 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness - that's supernatural. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 18:18 | comment | added | user50422 | @Rajesh - In the act of inspiration, do you believe that: 1) there is any element of divine intervention whatsoever? Is God intervening in any way, shape or form in the world? Isn't that supernatural? 2) is new information gained? | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 18:00 | comment | added | user50422 | @Rajesh - inspiration is clearly supernatural (comes from God) and is clearly revelatory (previously unknown information is revealed, there is transmission of information), so the semantics match up well. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 17:56 | comment | added | user50422 | @Rajesh - sounds like you are a cessationist, no supernatural revelations from God outside the Bible :-). See How do continuationists respond to the 'closed canon' argument against the continuation of special revelations and sign gifts? | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 17:31 | comment | added | user50422 | @Rajesh - I think you should post an answer to the Apostolic Fathers question then :-). By the way, I recently asked this other question on Job 14:12: Can Job 14:12 be interpreted as an eschatological statement about a future resurrection of the dead? | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 17:07 | comment | added | user50422 | What are your thoughts on the beliefs of the Apostolic Fathers (first 2 centuries)? See christianity.stackexchange.com/q/89140/50422 | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 17:02 | comment | added | Rajesh | "that one could arguably say that Job didn't show significant evidence of belief in a future resurrection" This can't be a serious statement. Job had significant belief in a future resurrection! When Job says "a man lies down and rises not again", what does he then say right after? You must take that statement in context. "till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep." Job is saying that a man rises not again UNTIL the heavens are no more(Psalm 102:25-26, Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 51:6, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, Matthew 24:35, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Revelation 21:1). | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:40 | comment | added | user50422 |
@Rajesh: Do you fully understand what "Man(us) goes to our age-during home(Sheol)" means? - it depends on what is meant by Sheol. What are your thoughts on the Book of Enoch? See sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe025.htm
|
|
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:35 | comment | added | user50422 | @Rajesh - I wouldn't put much stock on Job 14 as the foundation for my afterlife theology given how controversial this chapter is and given that one could arguably say that Job didn't show significant evidence of belief in a future resurrection. See hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/23117/… | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:27 | comment | added | Rajesh | @SpiritRealmInvestigator It's all about trying to imagine the unimaginable. You can't blame someone for using profound metaphor to do so. Actually, I can't think of any other way to do so. You obviously can't describe the incomprehensible in literal terms(otherwise you would comprehend it), so all that's left is to describe it metaphorically! There's no other way. So yes, Sheol is a metaphor(a deep and profound one) for the incomprehensible state of the dead. Does that clear up whatever you're thinking? Do you fully understand what "Man(us) goes to our age-during home(Sheol)" means? | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:24 | comment | added | Rajesh | @SpiritRealmInvestigator Not a figure of speech. Something more powerful than that. Read Job 14:7-17. It's one of my favorite passages in the entire Bible. Here are verses 11-12. "But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? 11 As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up, 12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep." The dead going to Sheol is as real as God sitting on His throne looking down from the sky. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:20 | comment | added | Rajesh | @SpiritRealmInvestigator Yeah, exactly, everything you say is correct. But you can't envision non-existence. Someone from 3000 years ago certainly isn't going to even try. What "Sheol" really is is a metaphor for the state of the dead. "Sheol" is presented as a place with no light or activity, but silence and darkness, because the state of the dead is just that. Sheol is not an actual place you can go to, it is just presented as such for metaphor. Just as God does not actually sit on a throne above the sky looking down at us(Psalm 11:4, Isaiah 63:15), it is just presented as such. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:20 | comment | added | user50422 | So you don't believe that Sheol is a real place that truly exists, in a literal sense, in reality (either in the physical realm or the spiritual realm)? You see it as a metaphor, a figure of speech? | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:17 | comment | added | Rajesh | @SpiritRealmInvestigator OH, I see where you got mixed up. No no, see, I'm just speaking from the perspective of Biblical authors, who always depicted Sheol as a place or location. Why? Because how else are you supposed to envision the dead? It's incomprehensible. Try to envision God creating the universe. I bet you're envisioning a being with some spatial dimensions, in a location somewhere. How else can you? Of course, there is no space where God is. Dimensions of space are a part of our universe, but God transcends that, does He not? It is like trying to explain color to a man born blind. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:15 | comment | added | user50422 | Under your view, the atoms and molecules of my deceased body would go back to earth, and my spirit would go back to God, and therefore the combination of the two would cease to exist, therefore "I" would cease to exist, and it wouldn't make sense to say that "I" go to Sheol, because "I" no longer exist. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:13 | comment | added | user50422 |
@Rajesh - As for where we go, there's a simple solution. I and you are not our spirits, our spirits are our spirits. We are ourselves. Our spirits go to God, not we go to God. Man(us) goes to our age-during home(Sheol). - Something in your theory still doesn't make sense to me. If we are a combination of body + spirit, the moment body and spirit part ways at death we cease to exist. Therefore, it wouldn't make sense to say that "we go to Sheol" after death because, under your view, there is no "we", "we" no longer exist. There is no "we" that can go to a place called "Sheol".
|
|
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:12 | history | edited | Rajesh | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 1 character in body
|
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:09 | comment | added | Rajesh | In Genesis 3:19, God does not say, "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until your body returns to the ground, since from it your body was taken; for dust your body is and to dust it will return." I've actually never seen the body be called dust in all of scripture! It's always that WE ourselves are dust. Psalm 146:4 says that OUR spirit departs and WE return to the ground. Not we depart and our body returns to the ground. So, a good rule of thumb is to always remember that "dust" is a metaphor for the fragile existence of humanity, not of our bodies. Hope this helps! :) | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 16:02 | comment | added | Rajesh | There are other examples of עוֹלָם meaning "a long duration of time" as opposed to "for eternity", but you get the point. YLT actually translates what is usually translated as "eternal home" as "age-during home". That's most likely the correct translation. Thus, Ecclesiastes 12:5 is not saying that once we die we go to Sheol for the rest of eternity, but just for a very long time. As for where we go, there's a simple solution. I and you are not our spirits, our spirits are our spirits. We are ourselves. Our spirits go to God, not we go to God. Man(us) goes to our age-during home(Sheol). | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 15:57 | comment | added | Rajesh | @SpiritRealmInvestigator Yes, I saw, a very very nice question. Good job! I wish I could answer but I can't. I'll give a run down though. "Eternal home" in verse 5 is not a necessary translation. The word for eternal is עוֹלָם, and it can simply mean a long duration of time, not necessarily eternity. For example, Exo 19:9 says that God wants the people to believe Moses עוֹלָם(translated as forever), but obviously, they will be dead someday, so they can't possibly keep believing in Moses for eternity. God just wants the people to believe Moses however long He wants them to, not for eternity. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 8:06 | comment | added | user50422 | Hey @Rajesh, your insights about heaven and sheol inspired me to ask this question. | |
| Jan 27, 2022 at 6:34 | history | edited | Rajesh | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 4 characters in body
|
| Jan 27, 2022 at 6:01 | history | edited | Rajesh | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 5 characters in body
|
| Jan 26, 2022 at 22:39 | history | edited | Rajesh | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 239 characters in body
|
| Jan 26, 2022 at 22:37 | comment | added | steveowen | @Rajesh prob better to ask your own Q , now that you have a good answer! And then I upvote the new one!! | |
| Jan 26, 2022 at 22:30 | history | edited | Rajesh | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 37 characters in body
|
| Jan 26, 2022 at 22:27 | comment | added | Rajesh | @SpiritRealmInvestigator Oh yes, I'm just realizing that! So sorry, my bad, I failed to pay attention to this question because you had posted one almost identical on BHSE, and I thought this one was just a repeat of that one(the one on BHSE dealt with the exact same passages and exact same subjects of whether or not David/Isaiah thought they were going to Heaven), so I didn't notice this was directed specifically to, as you say, Christians who believe that the saints... etc. etc. But, I wrote an answer, and I'm not going to delete it. So, tell me what you think of it! ;) | |
| Jan 26, 2022 at 22:23 | comment | added | user50422 | Wait, the question was scoped to "Christians who believe that the saints go to the presence of God as soon as they die". Are you a Christian who believes that the saints go to the presence of God as soon as they die? | |
| Jan 26, 2022 at 22:16 | history | edited | Peter Turner♦ | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
removed greeting part
|
| Jan 26, 2022 at 19:19 | history | edited | Rajesh | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 1592 characters in body
|
| Jan 26, 2022 at 18:44 | history | edited | Rajesh | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 11 characters in body
|
| Jan 26, 2022 at 18:43 | history | edited | Rajesh | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 66 characters in body
|
| Jan 26, 2022 at 18:30 | history | answered | Rajesh | CC BY-SA 4.0 |