1

As part of a refutation of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the author claims (with his own emphasis):

It is not possible since Jesus would be holding himself in his own hand (when He said, “this is my body”). source

The only support offered for the claim seems to be a reference to St. Augustine:

First, since in the original context, when Jesus said “this is by body,” everyone present knew it was not literally his real body but a piece of bread being held by His real body (hand). So, if it is not understood symbolically, then St. Augustine’s statement is a bold contradiction when he declared; “Christ bore Himself in His hands, when he offered His body saying: ‘this is my body’” (Ott, Fundamentals, 377).

Do most who refute the Real Presence agree that it is impossible for Jesus to institute such a thing in such a way?

If so, where can one find a more thorough examination of that impossibility?

3
  • 3
    That argument is the same argument as 'How can billions of wafers - over two thousand years - add up to vastly more than a single human body's worth of bread ?' The arguments for transubstantiation are more sophisticated than that.
    – Nigel J
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 15:39
  • @NigelJ - What argument is "That argument"?
    – qxn
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 16:48
  • I refer to your own words, the 'refutation' of the 'impossibility' of bread being held in the hand and being an 'extension' of the hand. That argument does not answer the more sophisticated expressions that are used in the theory (it is not my theory) of what is called 'transubstantiation'.
    – Nigel J
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 19:12

1 Answer 1

3

Thank you for providing the link to that tiny quote which you seem to feel is unreasonable. As you know, that was extracted by you more than three-quarters of the way down a very long article that was working through the subject of transubstantiation. To aid others wishing to know what the author said prior to your one-sentence quote, here is the context (and please note that it is his point No. 11):

(11) The Communion elements in the Gospels and 1 Corinthians 11 were not meant to be understood literally for several reasons:

First, since in the original context, when Jesus said “this is by body,” everyone present knew it was not literally his real body but a piece of bread being held by His real body (hand). So, if it is not understood symbolically, then St. Augustine’s statement is a bold contradiction when he declared; “Christ bore Himself in His hands, when he offered His body saying: ‘this is my body’” (Ott, Fundamentals, 377).

...Fourth, it was a spiritual participation in Christ’s death with other believers, not a physical imbibing of it, as Catholics claim. Thus, Paul said, “the bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16, emphasis added) which was his spiritual body (see v. 17).

Then comes a summary of the many points which the author feels shows up the error of the transubstantiation doctrine. That one-sentence quote you used is but one in a long list of summary points.

My answer to your question is that the idea of "Jesus holding himself in his own hand" [on the night he instituted that remembrance supper] is fully explained in the article you refer to. Without reading the whole article, that one-sentence quote might well seem unreasonable, especially if one does not know that the author was picking up on St. Augustine's own statement, "“Christ bore Himself in His hands, when he offered His body saying: ‘this is my body’” (Ott, Fundamentals, 377).

But given the development of the author's various arguments, he is making an impactful statement about something St. Augustine said himself, on that matter. See https://normangeisler.com/does-the-nt-support-the-rc-view-of-communion/

When the Bible account is followed, it's obvious that Jesus was using literal bread and literal wine as signs pointing to a still-future sacrifice. Until Christ had actually died and been raised, nobody could participate in consuming elements that actually could be his broken body and shed blood (assuming transubstantiation to be correct). Logically, it would be impossible for Jesus to be holding in his hand a piece of bread that had become his broken, sacrificial body, prior to that body having died in sacrifice.

The second reason is that signs are not the thing they signify. They point TO the thing signified. Christ was holding in his hand a literal piece of bread that was illustrative of what would happen to his body when it was (soon to be) crucified. But until his body actually WAS broken, that piece of bread in Christ's hand could only be a piece of bread.

7
  • Yes, I picked up on that one sentence while reading the entire piece, because it seems a rather bold one and one only supported by that reference to St. Augustine. The other paragraphs you quoted don't seem to have anything to do with the claim of impossibility. I added the reference to St. Augustine to the question. This answer doesn't seem to answer the question.
    – qxn
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 17:21
  • @ken What a pity you didn’t give the full quote from St. Augustine at the start, for it looked as if you were inferring that Mr. Geisler had made a silly statement, causing you to ask if it’s impossible for Christ to do that. St. Augustine clearly thought it was not only possible but that that was what Christ actually did the night before he died. I will remove the bits of the quote that don’t directly address that, but keep in the 1st 2 paras. that do. Then I will add more to convince e you that I’m answering the Q.
    – Anne
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 17:47
  • Thanks for the updated answer. As a hypothetical, would it have been possible for Jesus to hold his body in his hand after his resurrection?
    – qxn
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 18:13
  • @ken You are now entering the realms of such old chestnuts as, "Could God make a rock so heavy that he couldn't carry it?" Such hypothetical questions have long been blown out of the water, so I'm not going there, especially as I don't believe in transubstantiation. Those who do might like to consider your question.
    – Anne
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 18:30
  • I asked because I'm wondering if your answer implies God is bound by time. If it does, it would prompt me to post another question. If it doesn't, then I would need clarification, because the reasoning only seems to work if God is bound by time.
    – qxn
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 18:50

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .