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How could all things come into being and "apart or without" Him come into being that has come into being? This question is for those groups or others that deny the deity of Jesus Christ, who say He is a created being and those that believe He did not preexist His incarnation.

Please reconcile John 1:3 with Isaiah 44:24? "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you in the womb, I, the Lord am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."

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  • Sorry, Mr Bond, but your first paragraph is difficult to understand. What are you trying to say? Can you rephrase it so even people like me can follow you? Thanks. – Andrew Shanks 2 days ago
  • @AndrewShanks By the #'s Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 start out with, "in beginning." The main thought at Genesis 1:1 is, WHAT HAPPENED "in beginning." The main thought of John 1:1 is on WHO EXISTED "in beginning." John 1:1 beginning "antecedes" the Genesis 1:1 beginning. Since this is true the Apostle John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "and apart from Him/Jesus Christ nothing came into being that has come into being." This is BEFORE the Son incarnated at John 1:14. Paul backs this up at Colossians 1:16-17. At vs17, how can all things hold together by Him if He is a created being? – Mr. Bond 2 days ago
  • OK, I understand that. But what do you mean by this: Obviously this would also mean He could not have pre-existed His incarnation which I believe He did according to John 1:1-2.? Thanks. (Sorry for not getting it.) – Andrew Shanks 2 days ago
  • @AndrewShanks In other words, if Jesus Christ at John 1:3 where it says, "and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" then He could not have preexisted (according to the anti's that deny His deity) before He incarnated or became flesh according to John 1:14. As I stated the "in beginning" at John 1:1 antecedes the Genesis 1:1 beginning. What the anti's don't get is the fact that Jesus Christ came as a witness of the spoken word. According to John 14:9 the Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father. – Mr. Bond 2 days ago
  • @Mr.Bond The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father. Does this mean (a) That all God's manifestations (theophanies) in the OT are, in fact, manifestations of the Son (christophanies)? Or that (b) only with the incarnation was the Father revealed through His Son, Jesus Christ? Or (c) what? – Miguel de Servet yesterday
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Your consternation appears to lie in the confusion between things created and things that are Eternal. There are two realms, the Material and The Spiritual. The material realm consists of our world and and all other things in space. The Spiritual realm consists of all things which have no beginning and no end

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  • Welcome to the boards. I have no "feeling of anxiety or dismay/consternation. My question is simple? Since John 1:3b says, "and apart from Him/Logos/Word/Jesus Christ nothing came into being that has come into being" how could He have not preexisted His incarnation and be not God? Also, Isaiah 44:24 says, "I, the Lord am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." So how does one "reconcile" this clear contradiction here at Isaiah to what John 1:3 says and Colossians 1:16? Would you agree that there is only one creator? – Mr. Bond Jun 9 at 23:00
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    Angels are part of the spirit realm yet they are created and have a beginning. – Kris Jun 12 at 22:51
  • God IS by Himself, there is no logos person with Him. What God says happens, that’s it! The logos does not create, God creates thru his logos or word as John has expressed. It’s a very simple concept, according to the text and John’s inspired update. Necessary to show what Jesus came from. Jesus isn’t just another son of God, he is the logos of God. – user47952 2 days ago
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It seems some have trouble reading the actual words we are given. Intent on joining the dots in a pre-determined pattern, they miss the obvious meaning provided.

There is no 'HE' in John 1:1-3. This is a literary device at best to simulate the logos' intimate connection with God - which is 'divine' and 'with' God. (anything with God is not God)

This is confirmed in 1 John 1:1-2 concerning the logos...

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

So the logos is not a person, but simply the word of God - as expressed repeatedly though the NT. The disciples understood what Jesus came from - they could now touch and proclaim God's means of giving life - the logos - now made flesh. Now, in this new age and the age to come, Jesus is the source of new life - even raising them from the dead with his word. John 5:29

This word, or will or purpose of God (translated as statement, story, news and many others) was made into a man - Jesus ~4BC. That which (as 1 J 1 shows) represents a most basic form of God - His word, is now a man. Not 'fully God', but filled with the fullness of God - being His image and likeness.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form Col 2:9

Dwells in. Not IS.

For the word (logos) of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even as far as the division of soul and spirit... Heb 4:12

No person here either. Just as is in no other 'logos' verse.

The Colossians reference? Paul doesn't back anything up as suggested.

because in Him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him. Col 1:16

  • IN him - not BY him.
  • things IN heaven - not THE heavens.
  • things ON earth - not THE earth.
  • Through him, for him - not BY him

From the Gr. δι' (di') often meaning 'because of, by reason of. "through" is not about the method of creating, but the purpose of creating. Thus all things have their ultimate purpose in Christ. For without Christ as redeemer, there is nothing of Godly value in all His earthly creation. All things are made to have their meaning and potential in Christ - this was the plan from the beginning. Only in Christ are we in the image of God. Rom 8:29

The plainly spoken words reveal a truth which is consistently mis-read and mis-represented. The new creation, of the church centred on the coming kingdom, and its presence in Christ already, is the topic here, not a Genesis creation.

Further confirmed by the context of the continuing Colossians passage-

...He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

So Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation. Being the firstborn of the original creation is unscriptural and ignoring immediate context.

  • how can Jesus 'come to have first place in everything', if he made everything?
  • being 'firstborn of the dead' is the first to change from mortal flesh to immortal flesh - having life by the spirit instead of the blood. Jesus was never immortal to begin with - scripture readily bears his out.

To be perfectly clear- Jesus did not exist before he was conceived. He was only a plan, a prophecy and a promise. The logos is not a pre-existing Jesus. Anything other than this is derived not from scripture.

Paul has joined the dots for us without equivocation - stating the plain truth and confirming the nature of Jesus quite consistently.

John 1 is speaking of the logos - the word of God. Not until v14 is Jesus - the 'logos made flesh' revealed. It is this Jesus Paul speaks of. Who most certainly did not make the heavens and the earth as he wasn't born yet.

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“and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”

  • the 'Him' is the logos - it is not in any way Jesus - not until v14
  • the logos is the word of God - God makes everything that is
  • John says He does this by His word. This fits with Isaiah 44:24, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things. The logos isn't the maker - it's a word, just as God's spirit is not a separate entity apart from God, God's logos is not independent either - it is what God says.
  • God says let there be light - and so it is. Did the 'says' make light? Not on its own, if God didn't say it it wouldn't be.
  • John needed to explain God’s logos as that was what Jesus came from and isn’t just another ‘son of God’. This information is critical!

The insistence on a 'person' called the logos is a futile attempt to create a necessary 'pre-existent Jesus' to fit traditional dogma invented after the Apostolic Church Fathers passed on.

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  • Your right, "some are having trouble reading the actual words" and it ain't me. So tell me, what literary device was used here: "and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Note John 1:2, "That one was in the beginning with God." Explain why God's "Word or spoken words" would not be with God? It doesn't say God's word or words, it says "The Word existed, how? The Word existed with the God. The Word and The God are distinct, there is a subject/object distinction between the two. "The Word was God." So whatever God is, The Word is, and vice versa. – Mr. Bond Jun 8 at 0:53
  • 1 I didn't say wasn't with God. 2 where does it say "existed"? 3 "Word was God" is NOT the only way to translate that verse. Instead of sticking to your guns - consider what the text says and not what you thought it said. Your whole Q is based on 'made up' understanding. – user47952 Jun 8 at 0:57
  • Vs2, "He was in the beginning with God" means He existed with God. If He did not exist with God in the beginning then how can all things "without Him" come into being? The Word existed before He was born at vs14. You still have not explained, "and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Reconcile those words with Isaiah 44:24, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF. And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." And your sticking to your guns that John 1:1-14 is God's spoken words. Are not your spoken words already with you? – Mr. Bond Jun 8 at 1:14
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    This insistence on the pre-incarnated λόγος being personal, just because it is, in Greek, a noun of masculine gender, and therefore it is referred to with the masculine pronoun οὗτος, is pretty desperate indeed … – Miguel de Servet Jun 12 at 12:16
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    @Mr.Bond To refer to God’s λόγος, before the incarnation in the person of Jesus of Nazareth with “he” is, once again, misleading, nay wrong, because the only reason why the λόγος is referred to, in the original Greek, with a masculine pronoun, is that λόγος happens to be a noun of masculine gender. Just like σοφία, “wisdom”, happens to be a feminine noun, and πνεῦμα, “spirit”, happens to be a neuter noun. – Miguel de Servet 2 days ago
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The KJV renders John 1:1-3 as:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

From the point of view that Jesus is a created being, this rendering of the scripture supports that nothing was made without "the Word" Jesus. This is inline with the ideas in Colossians 1:15-17 (KJV):

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

From the point of view that Jesus is a created being these verses support eachother and support (at least not contradict) the following ideas

  1. Jesus is a separate being from God (“with God” & “image of the invisible God”).
  2. Jesus was the first creation by which all other things were made (“In the beginning”… (God almighty did not have a beginning) & “firstborn of every creature” (Col 1:15).

Maybe more important: it is interesting to notice that the earliest available Greek manuscripts of the John 1:3,4 there is no punctuation between the verses 3 and 4. This causes different possible renderings & translations. A common class of renderings is that similar as in the KJV. But for example Nestle and Aland place the punctuation different and there the last part of verse 3, is the start of the sentence of verse 4. This would lead to different meaning and translation obviously. Due to this uncertainty in the data from the oldest manuscripts there is little justification about being very dogmatic about any particular translation, interpretation and conclusions derived from these verses of John 1:3,4.

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