What does the Bible say about this? I'm looking for an answer that explains all major verses about this event.
This may be an issue of semantics. Here is my impression:
Satan sinned prior to Adam and Eve sinning, as Richard indicated in his answer (which you linked). At that time he "fell" in the sense that DTest was asking about in his question. (i.e. "fell from grace".)
However, after Satan's initial sin, he appears to have still had access to the realm where the angels stand before God (which we call "heaven"). This is what I was getting at in my "examples" link in my answer (which you linked). Here are the verses from Job that I was referring to:
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. -Job 1:6
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord. -Job 2:1
- (See also: Zechariah 3:1) I also linked a passage from Luke in which Jesus says that He was watching Satan falling from heaven when "the seventy" were rebuking demons. If he is still "falling from heaven" in Jesus' day, it seems logical to think he still had access to heaven, and must not have yet been banished in any ultimate sense.
The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning." -Luke 10:17-18
- The passage from Revelation 12 seems to be describing a much more ultimate banishment in which he is forced out of heaven by Michael's armies, there is "no longer a place found for them in heaven", and he is "thrown down to the earth", resulting in "woe to the earth" because once Satan realizes what has happened, he has "great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time." The context of this passage, which I was explaining in my answer (which you linked) seems to be about the End Times, and the casting down seems to happen after the ascension, since the resulting proclamation includes a description of how the "brethren" overcame Satan by the blood of Jesus. It seems unnatural to interpret this as describing an event that happened back in Genesis 1-3.
Ezekiel 28:12-19, which may be one of the points of confusion, is a prophecy against Tyre (specifically addressed to the King of Tyre). However, it is also partially addressing Satan, who was presumably working through the King of Tyre... for instance, in verses 12-15 it says things like "you were in Eden" and "you were the anointed cherub". It is true that the passage also says "I have cast you as profane from the mountain of God" and "I cast you to the ground". However, we need to read the entire passage and understand it as intended. For instance, it also says things like "by the abundance of your trade you were internally filled with violence" and "you profaned your sanctuaries", referring to the city, not Satan. Furthermore, there are statements like "I have destroyed you... from the midst of the stones of fire" and "I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth". I don't know of anyone who teaches that this happened to Satan - at least not yet (Revelation 20:10).
(Isaiah 14:3-21 is the same sort of story, but is about Babylon instead of Tyre.)
If there are other passages which seem to contradict this, make a note in the comments and I'll take a look. This is just my tentative understanding based on the passages I'm aware of. Hope that helps.
With your reference to Ezekiel and Revelations saying some things such as Eden have already happened, but he (Ezekiel) also mentions Satan being consumed by fire, which won't happen till after Satan is released for a short time after the millennial reign of Christ. To clarify, it would help to understand that God is timeless and so He can tell these things as past tense to his prophets. To give a metaphor, our Universe is like a fish bowl, but instead of three dimensions of where (latitude, longitude, and height), there's a fourth dimension of when called time, and God being outside of this four dimensional fish bowl, for He made it, can look into it, and see all events that are to come. This leads to an interesting twist to predestination, but that'd be for another question. Satan is prince of the air right now (Eph 2:2).
By looking at Rev. chapter 12 it appears Satan our adversary , who stood before the throne accusing us day and night (example ; Job) as an adversarial prosecutor was cast out of Heaven and replaced by our mediator , the man Jesus Christ. Also see Hebrews 2:14 .
In the first few verses of Rev. chapter 12 we see Satan has drawn on all his resources bringing them out of Heaven to earth ,in an all out attempt to kill the Messiah from birth. He was unsuccessful , and when Jesus was about to go to the cross it could be that he took his resources back to Heaven to accuse Jesus for ordaining 70 plus ministers to go out and preach the gospel as well as empowering them to perform miracles (in what might have been seen as unlawful by God's law on earth and an opportunity to accuse Jesus before the throne of Heaven , my thinking is "finally we got Jesus on a technicality!") . In other words Satan's contention was that Jesus did not have legal authority to send them out or empower them for spiritual service, and when they stormed Heaven to make their case they were met by resistance , a war breaks out and Satan and his followers have no more place in Heaven . Hence the witnessing of Jesus observing the falling to earth of Satan while the 70 + evangelists are about their commission.
As far as Satan's fall before Adam and Eve's fall. There other instances in scripture where one was not guilty (?) until the actual act was committed. In other words , no real judgement was made by God until the deed was done . Now we see Satan caused the death of the first man and woman and is "indeed" guilty of murder . His fall was seemingly gradual in that first he was a part of the original curse , became our "accuser" , was cast out of Heaven , will be cast down to the sides of the pit (bottomless) , released for a season , and ultimately cast into the lake of fire .
I've been reading this interesting post about the casting out of Lucifer, to earth, and threatening that "I will arise above the clouds" which place him here on earth since there are no clouds in heaven, of course. But my quest is before that time, subtly or non-mentioned in the scriptures. What was the argument that caused Lucifer to be thrown out of heaven, and strongly enough to cause one third of the Heavenly Host to join him? What was the accusation about? Was it anger over God creating Man? Was that it? He "so loved the World that He gave His only Son, Jesus! He loved us greater than His own! That wouldn't be a cause of extreme jealousy in the heavens, to the point that one third of the Angels went with Satan? When did Lucifer become Satan anyways? When he was expelled, stripped of his authority? Why did God send him down to earth, and strong evidence is given as to a "Pre Adamite Creation" where Satan/Lucifer distributed his "wares" or accusations against God and ultimately destroyed earth and much of the Creation with the first Flood and sought to "Be" God on the high sides of the North when he himself was but a created being with a purpose only God Himself really knows? So preoccupied with his own beauty and intelligence and pomp that he thought himself greater than God? All that time "amongst the stones" and the Praise and Worship of God rubbed off on him, with instruments built right into his body for the Worship of the Almighty, did he begin to think that the attention of Worship was aimed at himself? After all, he was over the throne of God walking amongst the colorful spectrum of lights we here on earth can't even imagine! Our light is caused by the interaction with the Sun and earth and atmosphere thus giving us the colors of the rainbow, but in Heaven the Light is Jesus, and what hidden to us colors can that represent? And the sounds, here are of a frequency and spectrum of earthly composition, what about the sounds of heaven? "Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man, those things that the Lord has prepared (for those who Love Him). So exactly what was it in the heavenly bliss that went amiss? Angels! Not third grade drop outs! Extremely intelligent and Powerful, Angels, went over to Lucifer's side? What! In Heaven, mind ya! He had that much of a reasonable quarrel against God the Almighty? Omniscient, Omnipresent, Loving, Merciful, Everlasting Father? Put on the stand of Judgment by those whom he Created?
I don't have a lot of time at the moment but I have some thoughts that perhaps you will appreciate as a contribution to getting your question answered.
First of all, I'm going to clue you in on some aspects that are in the context of where I am speaking from. I mention these because they are less commonly held views. In Revelation 21 it says "and there shall be a new heavens and a new earth", so we understand that the heavens and the earth undergo life cycles where when one creation waxes old there is another birthed to continue. Just as human parents create children in their own likeness and image, so too does one creation birth a new creation after its own image and likeness to carry on. The book of Revelation taps into this as it helps us understand the dynamic or the process by which a person can know the "end from the beginning". Put another way, so that a person can understand how one cycle of creation gives way to a new cycle of creation. Knowing this assists you in coming to decipher the distinct roles of the Eternal Godhead, of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Each personage plays a critical role in the birth, redemption and death of a cycle of Creation. There is also a role for the adversary to fulfill in each cycle of Creation, which cycles are patterned after one another. This means what is happening now has happened already before and that it will also happen again in the future. This is why prophets can reveal past, present and future, because they know these greater cycles shall repeat and the truths they teach are timeless. Therefore, it becomes helpful to distinguish things in terms of where everything fits within the basic blueprint of a single creation. And, it becomes vastly clarified when we understand the creation account itself as the blueprint that is written in a coded manner that is easily decoded when you read Genesis 2:4 that says "These (everything just mentioned previous) are the generations..." What this is saying is all of the stuff mentioned in the days of creation pertains to generations or genealogies. This is why the "begats" are such an important part of scripture. Your lineage implies you where were organized because all creations are foreordained where certain lineages are destined to perform/fulfill various aspects of what it takes for a cycle of creation to play out. Thus, our "final judgement" is when we are foreordained to what status and role we will perform/fulfill in the following cycle, and so on and so on, as each cycle of creation has a "final judgment". The creation is all about people and who governs who, etc. and each day of creation pertains to a thousand years for us. (See 2 Peter 3:8) For example, Jesus called himself the light and life of the world and he was born in the 4th millennia. This corresponds to creation day 4 saying the "greater light to rule the day" was created. This isn't describing a physical cosmos, but rather is describing how a foreordained geo-geneo-political cosmos is going to play out among specific tribal groupings on particular portions of our planet. For example, creation day 5 talks about the creation of the fishes and this is when the movement of Christianity, who refers to themselves as fishes, was scheduled to come about. It's all in the blueprint.
So, when this creation account as a blueprint of repeating cycles is used as a calibrating template you can come to understand more clearly what all things the Bible is talking about without all the hokus pokus mystery that turns it all into a bizzare fantasy. For example, you can come to understand Adam's real identity as a being of flesh and bone, which is a body that Paul describes by implication in Ephesians 5:30. He speaks of the people themselves as members of the church as being a part of a greater body. Eve is the church and Adam is the priesthood/governing body. The "Father's Kingdom" is Adam's dominion given to Him in the 6th millennia, which is a kingdom of kings, or put another way, a kingdom of sovereigns. We have a very good representation of such a kingdom when you look at what the founding fathers of the United states of America created. It made of its citizens sovereigns. However, just as the pattern implies, Adam and Eve transgress and succumb to "paradise lost" and are brought to a state of death. This is why we are experiencing decay and chaos on our global political scene. We are entering into the fall of Adam and Eve, prior to their redemption.
The redemption of Adam and Eve after being cast out of their garden paradise is an unfortunate part of our previous cycle's history that went missing from holy writ. The loss of this plain and precious key of information is what has caused our first Parents Adam and Eve to be viewed in such a negative way. But, They were redeemed and Adam did obtain the victory for His kingdom and He and Eve spent the remainder of their nearly 1,000 year lifespan ruling and reigning in righteousness over the dominion God gave to them.
If you look at the blueprint again we see Adam and Eve coming right at the end of day 6 and if they lived for nearly 1,000 years this means that their lifespan will significantly overlap into creation day 7, which many understand as "the Millennium", a period of peace and prosperity for the righteous as they enjoy their "rest" from all of the evils of the world, etc. Thus, this all points to Adam being the one who rules and reigns over the Father's Kingdom during the Millennium, but it's Adam after He has been redeemed from His fall. It is the redemption of Adam out of a period of chaos, darkness and destruction, that gives birth to a new cycle of creation while at the same time the old creation is taken into complete captivity and destruction by the adversary. This doesn't mean a bodily physical destruction but is rather a condition of having been subjected into the adversary's kingdom because you failed to recognize and/or rejected the Father's Kingdom. The victory of the Father's Kingdom isn't that it totally vanquishes all evil from the planet. Rather, it is that it obtains a position of complete sovereignty such that the adversary shall have no power over it or those who are citizens of that Kingdom.
Those in the Father's Kingdom shall continue to enjoy true liberty while those not in the Father's Kingdom will continue with the current trend to build up and enslave themselves into the adversary's "prison planet" system of "government knows best" tyranny. This is the state of spiritual death that scripture warns about and thus the death it warns of is the death of an individual's ability to make their own decisions in life matters.
So, at some point in the near future, when more and more people's eyes become opened to what is really going on, there will be an upsurge of people who will take courage and recognize the Father's Kingdom for what it truly is and they will stand in the face of whatever obstacles are necessary to stand fast in the liberty the Father's Kingdom gives them. In due time, all those who are in governance above these people shall cast out the spirit of Lucifer and provide godly leadership or they will be removed from their offices of authority. Casting Lucifer from "heaven" to "earth" simply means that this spirit of force, control, tyranny, etc. shall be removed from the realms of governance. Thus, the fall of Lucifer takes place upon Adam's redemption when He regains the dominion God gave to Him in victory. Then, the Lucifer of this cycle becomes the Satan of the following cycle.
God put that subtle serpent, that Satan/Sin/He, outside of the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, at the same time and the same place, upon earth and upon his belly he goes to eat dust all the days of his life. When is it that this serpent, that lying tongue, supposedly went up to Heaven after the garden as everyone thinks? Man fell, and that serpent fell with him as they were released outside the garden. This Satan of Job 1:7 came to present himself before God from walking to and fro in the earth. After Christ was Baptized and fled into the wilderness to present himself before God do we read he went to Heaven? Do we read that Satan come down from Heaven? Do we need to travel to Heaven to present ourselves before God?
This idea that Satan is in Heaven is a concept, and when this concept is realized to be in error, Satan is cast down to earth as lightening. When, and where, do we read that Satan went to Heaven after he, with man, were placed upon earth after being expelled from the Garden to eat dust all the days of his life? Well...let's cast him back down to earth where is really is; with man...in man, being that corruption found before they fell together being cast out of Eden.
And in Job when God tests Job, Job tells us that we receive good and evil from One God as per Deut 28 and Lam. 3:38-39: Blessings on one hand, and curses on the other hand, depending upon your deeds and our choices...that we have One Father in Heaven and there is no Devil beside him, and for good or for evil, our reward is in his hands. And depending upon our reward, man tends see God as a God, or God a as Devil before them. But he is One and there is no Devil with him. This concept is what falls from Heaven like lightening when we realize the truth. And even though I am all alone on this, I don't think I am the one in error, just that no one else sees the truth as it is written. God put that Serpent/Satan/Lying Tongue outside the Garden [Heaven?] upon earth to wander to and fro and eat the dust of the earth all his life...yet other people want me to believe Satan was in Heaven after the Garden...simple question, "When did Satan go to Heaven after the Garden of Eden?" Where do you find it written? It just isn't. The opposite is written...on earth, on his belly, to eat dust all his life. And that is where I found him. And he fell from Heaven like lightening. There is no Devil in Heaven, nor has been since the Garden.
I don't know how this could be made more clear. People were taught different and not according to as it is written and they think they "Know" the truth as it is written...but they don't. Besides, God said he had not made that serpent in Genesis 3:1..."Now the serpent more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." and we have a record of his creation, are we to suppose God pulled a sneaky on us? Not so, God is a God of truth. Eve's own thoughts of being equal to God set her tongue on fire from that desire of her own heart is that Satan/Sin/He that deceived her.
And I didn't even open my Bible, so you open yours and tell me where I went wrong. Once you consume the Word, you need to think about it. Make sense of it. And it makes so much sense to me that I could write it inside out or backwards and come to the same conclusion...That that idea of a Satan in Heaven is just that, a concept that needs to be corrected and Satan put back in his place where he was first put by God...with Adam and Eve and placed on earth and not in Heaven with God...but I guess people think only a Devil would have kicked them out if the garden away from the tree of life in the first place...that God has a Devil...not them. RIGHT? and I tell you they sure don't have any love for the truth when they think like that.
Just tell me where and when some Satan ever deceived you or roared that was not within some man or hidden within your own heart or because of your own lack of knowledge? There is a STRONG DELUSION somewhere and is it from Satan or is it because they love not the truth? Who is it that really deceives you?
Regards, John Belvin
protected by Community♦ Jan 20 '14 at 20:48
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