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Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

Is the "everyone" including Adam and Eve before they are created ?

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    When one arrives at conclusions that are clearly illogical ('Adam and Eve before they were created') then one has to stop and consider that one's reasoning must - it really must - be flawed. – Nigel J Oct 25 at 22:02
  • Nigel, my question appear as based on Calvinist teaching itself which is clearly illogical ---> God predestined everyone before Adam and Eve created where one of the verse Calvinist use to prove is : God loved Jacob hated Esau before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad while the verse is specific to an individual. – karma Oct 26 at 4:43
  • A question is a question, not a conclusion. The conclusion is in two options : God has bound everyone over to disobedience after the creation OR before the creation. Since I don't know which one is the Calvinist view, that's why I ask. – karma Oct 26 at 4:47
  • Neither scripture nor Calvin make any statements about mankind before it is created. It would be illogical to do so. – Nigel J Oct 26 at 19:36
  • Nigel, I agree with you. So then there is no such thing "Unconditional Election" (???) : Unconditional election (also known as unconditional grace) is a Reformed doctrine relating to Predestination that describes the actions and motives of God in eternity past, before he created the world – karma Oct 28 at 3:46
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It was always God's plan, before the creation of the world, that all should sin against Him. God is completely outside of time, it makes no sense to speak of things He planned before the creation and things planned after creation. He has an eternal plan, and it has always existed since before the foundation of the world.

Of course, the "all" includes Adam and Eve and everyone else.

The reason given in the verse is so that God's grace can be displayed.

The grace is not given savingly to all, but all receive food and common blessings which they do not deserve.

The plan was God's plan, the blame for the sin is entirely ours.

  • Where do you find any scripture which supports the words contained in your first sentence ? – Nigel J Oct 26 at 19:35
  • Romans 11:32, and in addition it is plain because everyone sinning is what has happened. Are you saying that anything can happen outside God's will?? The hairs of your head are all counted, not a bird falls to the ground but it is the will of God. – Andrew Shanks Oct 26 at 20:31
  • He works all things after (or in accordance with) the counsel of his own will.. Ephesians 1:11. – Andrew Shanks Oct 26 at 20:45
  • That refers to God's own, independent, works. You are attributing sin to God, by saying that he planned that others should work sin against him. – Nigel J Oct 27 at 20:45
  • @NigelJ the aim of men when they sin is evil, but God's design in man's sin is good, and for good purposes, He brings good out of man's rebellion and sin. James 1:13-14 – Andrew Shanks Oct 27 at 23:03

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