4

Proverbs 8:22 (KJV) The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Even if you take the stance that Proverbs 8:22 means God possessed me at the beginning (i.e. as opposed to God created me at the beginning), what does one do with, for example, Sirach 1:4, which says:

Sirach 1:4 (KJV) Wisdom hath been created before all things, and the understanding of prudence from everlasting.

I'd like to believe that Wisdom is Jesus; it makes a lot of sense to me. But it's very hard for me to believe Jesus was a created being, and just as hard to believe there are two Wisdoms.

Question

According to Christians who believe a) Christ was not created and b) is the Wisdom spoken of in the Wisdom books of the Old Testament, why is this Wisdom described in the Old Testament as having been created by God?

  • Welcome to Christianity Stack Exchange. When you have a moment, please take the Christianity Stack tour to learn more about us: christianity.stackexchange.com/tour This is how we are different to other sites: christianity.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1808/… – Lesley Jan 6 '19 at 15:06
  • See christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/8946/… It is likely that the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 does not refer to Jesus, but is instead an example of the lterary type known as encomium. – Paul Chernoch Jan 10 '19 at 16:42
  • Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus is the only one who was directly created by Jehovah. – Kris Jan 12 '19 at 0:47
  • I read a book today that touches on this. Their explanation was that the Sirach verse there is interpreted as Wisdom existing before all things, as it is elsewhere mentioned that all things were created through Wisdom in a similar manner to all things being created through the Word in John 1. – Zenon Jan 20 '19 at 20:53
  • Wisdom is a created Spirit that emanates from the Holy Spirit it is the Sevenfold Gifts.To understand Wisdom, you must know that Jesus is the Uncreated Wisdom and Jesus was Anointed by the Holy Spirit in His humanity to fulfill His Redemptive Mission. But all of mankind will be Anointed by the Spirit of Created Wisdom in varying degrees defending on our mission.I already answer this in full, the Created Wisdom is the Anointing received by Mary in Fullness as She prepares the Seven Column to house it in Her Seven Sorrows.All of us will be anointed by wisdom lf we seek it like Solomon did. – jong ricafort Feb 9 '19 at 12:42
2

I actually read an article recently that mentions in passing this concept (that Wisdom is Jesus.)

The article first speaks of the Greek Concept of Logos and mentions,

“Beginning at least as early as the apologist Justin Martyr (A.D. 125), Christians, almost without exception, identified Sophia (the Greek equivalent of Heb. ḥoḵmâ) in Proverbs 8 with Jesus Christ.”[17]

...

In these verses the quality of wisdom is personified. As the gender of wisdom [in Hebrew: ח֗כְמַה: ḥoḵmah] is feminine, some claim that the agent I question is a feminine being. However, it should be remembered that there is a difference between sex and gender. This is also the case in other Semitic languages that Hebrew. For instance, the Arabic word for Caliph (خليفة: ḵalīfe) is a word in the feminine gender although it always refers to a male.[16]

https://antiochene.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/logos-and-memra/

Question According to Christians who believe a) Christ was not created and b) is the Wisdom spoken of in the Wisdom books of the Old Testament, why is this Wisdom described in the Old Testament as having been created by God?

There are a number of different potential reasons for this:

1) Theological Development. The bible is a work of revelation and theological development. If you look in the Bible certain concepts like God's omnipresence, the afterlife are not understood in ancient times the way we understand them. So I would contend that the same is true in regards to Nicene concepts of the persons of the Trinity etc.

2) The Limited Vocabulary of Hebrew. Ancient Hebrew is a language with a very limited vocabulary. I have to look up some official stats, but I recall that it has only a few thousand words compared to simple European languages that have 10,000 word Lexicons which in turn are only a fraction of the Lexican of modern English. What this means practically speaking is that words are going to have to serve double duty, have multiple meanings and be less definite than a language like Greek. But overall, I really believe the theological development reason is the best explanation.

But I will add a third one from the aforementioned article.

The parallel to logos the Aramaic speaking Jews after the captivity in Babylon used the word memra. This concept was at times personified and used on a sort of representative of God. As we have seen above, “In Psalms 110 Jehovah addresses the first verse to the Memra.”[43]

Consequently, when John uses the word logos on Jesus, it is either to say that this person, who was active at the creation the world, visible as well as invisible, is the embodiment of earlier prophecies and promises, or, even more likely, that he was called logos because he was the spokesman or representative of God.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if second and third century Christians had based their interpretation of John 1:1, not on the connotations of the Word in Greek philosophy, but on those of the Word in Jewish Aramaic tradition.

| improve this answer | |
  • Well thought answer if Catholic & Christian simply embraced St,Justin Martyr that Jesus is the Wisdom, but the reality is this passages is like the mystery Most Holy Trinity. The answer did not clearly stated if Jesus is the Wisdom in Proverbs8, is he therefore "created"? – jong ricafort Jun 28 '19 at 1:03
0

The answer is in the fact that Proverbs is writing of wisdom using personification. It is only because of this that it is applied to a person, namely the Son of God. The author of Proverbs is using poetic language (after all, "create me" before "[creation]" is a poetic and endearing way of saying God generated or 'begot,' you might say, from all eternity some aspect of Himself—Wisdom/the Son—not that God was eternally without wisdom, and then created it, only to become wise: the absurdity and impossibility of that alone proves that much. He isn't writing directly of Christ, just as Hosea 11:1 wasn't directly speaking of Christ, but "Israel," although without qualification it is taken to refer to Christ typologically by Matthew, since it applies to Christ in a prophetic or 'more true' or spiritual way.

| improve this answer | |
0

How can Wisdom be Jesus if Wisdom was created?

Short Answer:

Wisdom was "qanah or birthed or created" by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Created Wisdom was birthed by the Holy Spirit as conceived by the love of the Father and the Begotten Son to the chosen woman destined to become the Theotokos and the Mother of all the living in the order of grace.

The Holy Spirit the Uncreated Immaculate Conception the love of the Father and the Son had "qanah" the Spirit of Wisdom, the Created Immaculate Conception. (St.Maximillian Kolbe's teachings)

So, the birth of Created Wisdom in eternity is a Divine Spirit that reveals Her identity thru the Blessed Virgin Mary as "I AM the Immaculate Conception." or the "Lady Wisdom" in Proverbs8:22.

But the Spirit of Created Wisdom encompasses all the Divine Plan of God or the Wisdom of God from alpha to omega. So, the chosen woman is not only destined to become the Theotokos, She will also be the "Handmaid of the Lord" as King David & King Solomon identified themselves as both "son of thy handmaid". Mary will also be the "Mother of all the elect"(St.Augustine teaching) in Ephesians1:3-4,. Also, She is destined to become the Mother of all the Redeemed, the Mother of the Church and the Mother of all the living in the order of grace. And the pinnacle of Mary's role is the crowning of Her glory as Sovereign Queen of Heaven & Earth.

In short, from lowly Handmaid to Sovereign Queen is the "Anointed Role" of the Blessed Virgin Mary and it requires that She fully possessed the "Spirit of Wisdom" in Proverbs8:22.

This is better expressed in the pending 5th Dogma;

"Mary is Co-Redemptrix.Mediatrix of all graces and Advocate."

Explanation

When we talk about who is Wisdom in Provebs8:22-ff, over the 2000 years period this has not been answered clearly because the Apostles called this mystery as "meat" or the "hidden wisdom" and it is very hard to digest. The only way a true seeker can understand this is to possessed "Wisdom" like King Solomon did, if not, we need someone who will teach us the mystery in the form of a "milk" so that our finite understanding can grasp this mystery.

Did God leave us and the Catholic Church in the dark? No, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ until the end of time.(Matthew28:20)

God gradually reveals His Wisdom or His Divine Plan to the Church for the salvation of all mankind. In 1858, God reveals directly His Wisdom but hardly anyone ponder it deeply except for St.Maximillian Kolbe.

When St.Bernadette Soubirous asked the Beautiful Woman, it would have been better if She answered the question "Who are you?" with this words;

"I am "possessed" by the Lady Wisdom in Proverbs8:22", but the beautiful Woman answered in a strange manner that needs a lot of pondering and merciful graces of God to help us fathom this beautiful mystery of the Lady Wisdom.

Let us be cleared that Wisdom and the Holy Spirit are both Divine but clearly are two different person as King Solomon differentiated them in the Book of Wisdom.

The Wisdom seats at the Throne of God and later this Wisdom seats at the Sorrowful & Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos, Mary is the Seat of Wisdom (CCC721)

"For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will delight your soul."(Proverbs2:10)

Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars;(Proverbs9:1)

The Beautiful Woman answered St.Bernadette with this words;

"I am the Immaculate Conception".(This answer reveals that a Divine Person possessed the Blessed Virgin Mary).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Soubirous

Can this profound revelation, enough to lead us to answer your question why Wisdom is created? YES!

"The Will of the Father is communicated by the Word of Jesus Christ and understand thru the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit."(this phrase is my own reflection)

This phrase is related to Wisdom9:1-4

“O God of my ancestors and Lord of mercy, who have made all things by your word,and by your wisdom have formed humankind to have dominion over the creatures you have made, and rule the world in holiness and righteousness, and pronounce judgment in uprightness of soul, give me the wisdom that sits by your throne,

Have we seen the difference? The Abba Father the creator had made all things thru His Word/Logos but when He formed man, the Abba Father needed not just the Word/Logos but it needs Wisdom too, why?

The Abba Father needed both the Word & Wisdom when it formed man because the created thing needs to have a Divine Life, Wisdom is the breath of God, and this Spirit of Wisdom "possessed" the Theotokos, so all the "Divine Life or sanctifying graces" pass thru from the Hands of the Blessed Virgin Mary that's why She is called the Mother of all the Redeemed in the order of grace. (CCC969)

"For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;...(Wisdom7:25)

Let's described the facets of Wisdom in Proverbs8:22;

  1. In eternity the Spirit of Wisdom was qanah or created/birthed .God gave birth to the Wisdom, described as a child beside Him, the object of His delight.
  2. In Heavenly realm Wisdom is presented to the angels. Lucifer and his fallen angels rejected the Eternal Wisdom on the Incarnated Logos. (Church Father teachings and Ven.Mary of Agreda revelation.)
  3. In Garden of Eden, Wisdom is the way for Adam & Eve to reach Theosis.And satan beguiled Eve to take the short-cut to gain Wisdom.
  4. In the Old Testmament, Wisdom is prophesied to foreshadow the coming of the Logos and the means to saved Jews.(Book of Wisdom)
  5. In the New Testament, the Logos became the Wisdom of God and was Incarnated to dwell among us to become the Saviour of mankind.
  6. In the Kingdom of God, the glorified Incarnated Wisdom mediates to the Father to send the Holy Spirit, but this Holy Spirit that the Father had sent thru Jesus Christ mediation is a subordinate type of Holy Spirit as it cannot testify on Her own and has no authority.
  7. In the Upper Room the subordinate type of Holy Spirit was sent, who is this subordinate type of Holy Spirit? Is She the Spirit of Created Wisdom that will lead all the Redeemed to salvation?

12 “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. 13 [a]But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. 15 Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.(John16:12-15)

Did God the Father and the glorified Jesus Christ send the "Spirit of Created Wisdom" in the Upper Room or the Infinite Holy Spirit the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity?

The word "I am the Immaculate Conception" provides the answer.Why? This Marian Apparition in 1858, reveals that Mary was "possessed" by a Divine Person.

Mary was immaculately conceived a Dogma of the Church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception But, Mary was not the "Immaculate Conception", it is a Divine Person that "possessed" Her as St.Maximillian Kolbe ponders this profound mystery.

What is the Final Answer to the question on who is Wisdom? the word "qanah' provides the answer.

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

The Holy Spirit the Uncreated Immaculate Conception "qanah" the Spirit of Created Wisdom the Created Immaculate Conception. That's why in Proverbs8:22-ff Wisdom is like a child or a daughter it was "birthed" the brings delight to God.The Wisdom is the witness that will testify as the "Spirit of Truth" from eternity to the end.

*Bethuel is allegorically explained as Wisdom **"the daughter of God, always a virgin" (euyU'tTJP ewu [. .. ] aEmapecvo�; Fug. 50; cf. QG 4:97: "Who is to be considered the daughter of God but Wisdom, who is the firstborn mother of all things?")***

In the context of Proverbs 8:22 the verb is more literally translated, not as create, but as begotten or birthed, i.e. "Yahweh begot/ birthed me as the beginning of his ways." This can be readily seen from a more literal rendering of Proverbs 8:22-25:

"Yahweh himself begat me as the beginning of his way, the first of his acts of old. From eternity I was appointed, from the start, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been fashioned, before the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains."

The text is obviously speaking figuratively on how Yahweh acquired Wisdom, i.e. Yahweh got it by begetting or birthing it in order to use it to create everything. We know that it is figurative since Yahweh doesn't literally give birth in labor pains.

Referrences:

1.https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_wisdom_created.htm

2.https://www.academia.edu/5614052/Searching_for_Divine_Wisdom_Proverbs_8_22-31_in_Its_Interpretive_Context

  1. other refrences this answered link; According to Catholicism, who is the Wisdom being described in Proverbs 8:22–36?

  2. Love of Eternal Wisdom https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/LEW.HTM

| improve this answer | |
  • Your references 1 and 2 reside on your computer. No-one else can get at them from here. – Andrew Leach Jun 28 '19 at 17:11
  • @AndrewLeach the two links are now ok..please read for your reference why Wisdom is "qanah or birthed" as a fruitful conception of the love of the Most Holy Trinity in eternity.Take note of the difference between first creature and not firstborn.Since God is a Spirit it will birthed a spirit and that is the aged old puzzle now solved by the revelation of Mama Mary to St.Catherine Soubirou "I AM the Immaculate Conception" or "I AM the Lady Wisdom". but it is the "Spirit of Created Wisdom" speaking thru Mary because She was "possessed" by Her perfectly, completely and mystically. enjoy the read. – jong ricafort Jun 30 '19 at 2:36

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.