For brevity, I would clarify my question as relating to the Traditionalist groups who are in full opposition to Pope Francis and to the teachings of Vatican II but would still consider themselves as belonging to the True Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ.

I think these are the same Traditionalist groups whom when Pope Francis was asked concerning them, just said "we know them."

I think that there are Traditionalists that are in Full Communion with Rome (that meaning they recognize the Authority & Legitimacy of Pope Francis as Pontiff and also accept the Vatican II teachings), but this faction is not included in this question for clarity.

My question is this—some of these Traditionalist Catholics, our separated brothers & sisters, are under the leadership of groups that openly voice contradiction to Vatican II teachings and do not recognized the legitimacy of Vatican II Popes starting from John XXIII. It's already been 50 years running now but still, some of these groups exist today in opposition to Rome and the Pontiff.

In light of this situation, can this separated group known collectively as Traditional Catholics celebrate the Latin Mass? Can others do so when the priest who administers the sacrament is not in Full Communion with Pope Francis and Church Magisterium?

In other words, is this offering pleasing & acceptable to God?

I'm bothered by the reflections I've read on Daily Liturgical Meditations (The Anawim Way), wherein King Saul disobeys God's command through Samuel's instructions, thereby rendering his offering of sacrifice as neither pleasing nor acceptable to God.

The first book of Samuel states:

"Obedience is better than sacrifice." — I Samuel 15:22, New International Version

My specific question is, has the Catholic Church, based on its history from the apostolic era up to Vatican I or any papal bull or official position which was made prior to yet completely agrees with the Vatican II decree that all Holy Masses (and all Latin Masses by extension) must only be offered in Full Communion with Rome? Again, by this I mean that the priest who celebrated the Holy Mass/Latin Mass must in obedience, and must have offered it always in union with the Pope/Vicar of Christ. Such a Mass would be celebrated as "ONE UNITED SACRIFICE" on behalf of the Mystical Body of Christ the Church.

A Holy Mass offered as "ONE UNITED SACRIFICE" is the 'will of the Father' as Jesus stated in Gospel of John:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one... — John 17:20-22, New International Version

This passage reveals that the Church must be united as one,and so the Holy sacrifice of the Mass must be offered by the Whole Church that is united as one too.

I'm looking for Apostolic, Church Fathers and Vatican I teachings that a Holy Mass (specifically the any Latin Mass), is not pleasing or acceptable to God should it be offered or celebrated by any persons not in Full Communion. This would be a way of looking at the 'will of the Father' in John 17:22 and God's open rejection of Saul's unlawful sacrifices in I Samuel 15:22.

  • 1
    Your question is worded in its' body in a rather confusing manner. – Ken Graham Aug 9 at 1:26
  • Can you mentioned specifically were exactly the confusing statement so I can reword or delete it if necessary.thanks – marian agustin Aug 9 at 1:58
  • For one thing, the FSSP is in total unity with Rome. Some of your sentence construction needs improving as well. You want Apostolic, Church Fathers and Vatican I teachings about the relevance about whether the future Mass of Pope Paul VI in Latin is assumed to be in union with Rome and pleasing to God? – Ken Graham Aug 9 at 3:51
  • I already reworded and simply addressed the questions to Trads who are known to be in opposition with Rome, and excluded FSSP who are known to be in Full Communion.hope this edit works well with you.thanks. – marian agustin Aug 9 at 8:11

The first prayer in the canon of the traditional Latin mass, called the "Te igitur" after its first words, says explicitly that the sacrifice is offered "in primis ... pro ecclesia tua sancta catholica, ..., una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro N., et antistite nostro N., et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicae et apostolocae fidei cultoribus." [in the first place ... for Thy holy Catholic church ... together with Thy servant N. our pope, N. our bishop, and all true believers and professors of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith --- translation from St. Andrew Daily Missal] Of course, the part about the pope is omitted when there is no pope, and the part about the bishop is omitted when the local see is vacant, but even without those two parts, the prayer clearly puts the holy sacrifice of the mass in communion with the Catholic Church.

  • Are you saying the opening prayer can be modified or changed without altering the essence of Tradition? What Catholic Church are you referring to when a Pope & Bishop can be omitted? – marian agustin Aug 11 at 11:56
  • As far as I know, this prayer has not been changed since records are available. (The most recent change in the Roman canon was John XXIII's addition of St. Joseph to the "Communicantes", assuming you consider John XXIII a valid pope. The most recent change before that was around A.D. 600. Neither of those affected the "Te igitur" that I quoted.) Obviously, when the see is vacant, for example when a pope died and no successor had been elected, the part of the prayer about the pope would be omitted --- otherwise, whose name would you use for the "N" in the prayer? – Andreas Blass Aug 11 at 13:08
  • As far as I know, what I wrote above is correct for both the traditional Catholic church and for the modernist one. – Andreas Blass Aug 11 at 13:10
  • If they omitted the Pope definitely they are not in Communion with the Vatican II Church/(modernist if you referred it to Rome), also if they omitted the Bishop if there's no Bishop then the letter of St.Ignatius will be contradicted as the Bishop is the overseer and no Mass can be celebrated without the permission of Bishop.So where's the communion in the Catholic Church? it would seem they are only in communion with their own group and no one else, am I interpreting your answer correctly? – marian agustin Aug 11 at 13:24
  • The communion is with (quoting the prayer again) "all true believers and professors of the Catholic and Apostolic faith". Another part of your comment seems to assume that, when a bishop has allowed certain priests to celebrate mass (in certain churches), that permission expires when the bishop dies. That seems to be wrong in all versions of Catholicism that I've encountered; priests continued to celebrate mass (and to hear confessions, which normally also requires permission of the bishop) even after the bishop of their diocese died. – Andreas Blass Aug 11 at 13:33

Is the Latin Mass, when celebrated not in Full Communion with Rome, not pleasing & acceptable to God?

First let's be clear that Vatican II Popes did not abandon the saying of Latin Mass in fact the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin had been given important emphasis on the value of the faithful learning to understand Ecclessial Latin; please read below:

"Latin is the normative language of the liturgy, in the Latin Church, and also of the great majority of the Church’s teaching documents and administration, since very early times. The teaching of Blessed Pope John XXIII in Veterum Sapientia emphasises the value of Latin as universal, unchanging, and dignified. The rise of migration in recent decades has given particular value to the universality of Latin. It remains the essential language of the Latin Church’s culture and spirituality. Its use in the liturgy, even where the congregation may have little knowledge of the language, can give rise, as Blessed Pope John Paul II expressed it, to a ‘profound sense of the eucharistic mystery’, since it can assist in communicating the grandeur and importance of the liturgical action. Particularly in the context of a proper liturgical formation, far from being a barrier to participation, therefore, Latin can be an aid to it. Pope Benedict XVI has asked that seminarians be taught to celebrate the liturgy in Latin, noting that the Faithful can be taught many texts and chants."

https://australiaincognita.blogspot.com/2012/10/what-to-do-for-year-of-faith-1-learn.html

This questions is addressed to all those who claimed to be Traditionalist but at the same time are very vocal in their opposition to the Vatican II Church and even branding or calling all the Vatican II Popes as heretic starting from John XXIII.

This so called group of Traditionalist are known as critics and enemies based on their attack to the dignity of Vatican II Popes particularly now with Pope Francis.

This Traditionalist group is obviously celebrating the Latin Mass not in Communion with Rome or they don't recognized the legitimacy of the Papacy of Vatican II Popes.

Now, to addressed the question is it pleasing & acceptable to God?

All the Latin Mass Eucharistic prayer of intercession have the same formula from Apostolic Tradition up to Vatican I and even up to Vatican II.

Let's check on the Eucharistic prayer of intercession pertaining to the offering of the Eucharistic Sacrifice, to whom the prayers is addressed;

1354 In the anamnesis that follows, the Church calls to mind the Passion, resurrection, and glorious return of Christ Jesus; she presents to the Father the offering of his Son which reconciles us with him.

In the intercessions, the Church indicates that the Eucharist is celebrated in communion with the whole Church in heaven and on earth, the living and the dead, and in communion with the pastors of the Church, the Pope, the diocesan bishop, his presbyterium and his deacons, and all the bishops of the whole world together with their Churches.

Also, it is noteworthy to noticed the important of offering the Eucharistc Sacrifice in unity starting with the Pope...in CCC1369

1369 The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church.

The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop's name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:

Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.191 (191 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Smyrn. 8:1;SCh 10,138.)

Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.192 (192 PO 2 § 4.)

Now the CCC mentioned the unity of the universal church, the question is what is the definition of the church?

According to Church Fathers who is the Church?

Lay believers are in the front line of Church life; for them the Church is the animating principle of human society.

Therefore, they in particular ought to have an ever-clearer consciousness not only of belonging to the Church, but of being the Church, that is to say, the community of the faithful on earth under the leadership of the Pope, the common Head, and of the bishops in communion with him. They are the Church.432

432 Pius XII, Discourse, February 20, 1946:AAS 38 (1946) 149; quoted by John Paul II, CL 9.

So the Church established by Jesus Christ is headed by the Pope in communion with the bishop and with all the faithfuls/believers in all parts of the world..

If we omit the name of the Pope in celebrating the Latin Mass.St. Ambrose a Traditionalist, Church Father & Doctor of the Church said;

"Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia, Ibi Deus".

*And if we omit the name of Bishop who have jurisdiction in the diocese,*St.Ignatius of Antioch has said the following;

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. […] Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. […] Whatsoever [the bishop] shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 8)

“Let all things therefore be done by you with good order in Christ. Let the laity be subject to the deacons; the deacons to the presbyters; the presbyters to the bishop; the bishop to Christ, even as He is to the Father.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 9)

“Let all things therefore be done by you with good order in Christ. Let the laity be subject to the deacons; the deacons to the presbyters; the presbyters to the bishop; the bishop to Christ, even as He is to the Father.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 9)

Also in the reference articles the author writes the following;

From these words, we recognize the great emphasis which St. Ignatius places on the authority of the bishop and the obligation of all (including both the laity and the clergy) to be subjected to the bishop. “Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop.” How strong and direct are our Saint’s words! How wrong are those who reject their bishop’s authority and strive forward in pride to do their own will!

Who can dare to judge his bishop? Whither comes such authority? No, there is none in the Church who is over the bishop (excepting, of course the Pope), therefore whosoever judges and condemns his bishop judges against Christ and against the Father. To reject the authority of the bishop is to reject the authority of Christ – persons who do such are “not possessed of a good conscience.”

Wherever the bishop is, there is the people of God; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/10/on-authority-of-bishops-from-st.html

Therefore, based on Catechism of the Catholic Church, Church Father's teaching (St.Ignatius of Antioch, St.Ambrose also St.Pius XII) and from biblical passages in John17:22. The Will of the Father as Jesus said is an offering of "ONE UNITED SACRIFICE". Not following the desire of the Abba Father clearly expressed in Jesus words in John17:22 the offering is "not pleasing & acceptable" as it contradict the desire of God the Father.

In closing I would like to quote the words of St.Augustine in essence of Tradition relating to embracing the Fullness of the Gospel.

"If we only believe the Tradition we like and reject what we dont like, it is not the Tradition that we believe, it is ourselves."(St.Augustine Bishop of Hippo, A Traditionalist, Church Father and Doctor of the Church)

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