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My Calvinist friend gave me Romans 9:21 and Jeremiah 18:4 to support his view that each individual since was born already either the object of His wrath or the object of His mercy.

After I read Jeremiah 18:4, to me it seems Jeremiah is talking about nation, not individual. And also to me, the analogy in Jeremiah can not lead me to conclude that the potter deliberately make an ugly vessel because the potter has the intention to throw it into the garbage. Also in Jeremiah that in the future passing time (when the ugly and beautiful vessel already exist) an event of repeating process to both kind is possible.

I propose my imagination about Jeremiah potter story to my friend. But my friend explanation, to me is not clear. That's why I ask here, because I found a difference between Jeremiah and Romans about the potter.

  • Jeremiah talk about a nation - Romans talk about an individual
  • Jeremiah potter doesn't deliberately make an ugly vessel - Romans potter deliberately make an ugly vessel.
  • Jeremiah 18:7-8 show a possibility that something change to the ugly vessel in the future - Romans show the ugly vessel is fixed from the start until the end.

So the first thing I need to know is whether Romans potter story is based on Jeremiah potter story or not in the point of view Calvinist. If not, then I don't need to propose my imagination of Jeremiah potter story. If yes, how do I correct my imagination of Jeremiah potter story in order to "agree" with Romans potter story ?

Thank you.

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Paul writes of the potter making a vessel to dishonor and another to honor. This is more akin to making an ashtray (dishonor), and a wine flask (honor), than to "ugly" and "not ugly".

It is true that, according to Paul (and, therefore, Calvinism), some are made to be children of wrath, and others children of mercy. In fact according to Romans 5, alll are naturally born into wrath - it is only those who, by no merit of their own, God has deigned to show grace & mercy who are now considered "vessels of honor".

But that is a different view than, "hey, I screwed up - let's try again" (a la Jeremiah 18).

Paul writes of the potter making a vessel to dishonor and another to honor. This is more akin to making an ashtray (dishonor), and a wine flask (honor), than to "ugly" and "not ugly".

  • the NLT version wrote : When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?. I think if the potter make an ashtray then later on he throw it to the garbage - maybe it's because the potter doesn't smoke. :). – karma Mar 3 '17 at 14:20
  • you wrote : some are made to be children of wrath, and others children of mercy. Based on the potter story, I agree. So, from the same clay, some are made into an ashtray (children of wrath) to be thrown into the garbage later on - some are made into a wine flask (children of mercy) to be put on the table later on. But when you said : All are born as a children of wrath, this leads me to think that at first the potter make ashtrays. Later on he choose some to be remade into a wine flask, while the rest he just left them as it is. Would you please elaborate me what do you mean ? – karma Mar 3 '17 at 14:31
  • I'm sorry as I myself is OOT (out of topic). BTT (back to topic), so... do you mean that Romans 9:21 is not based on Jeremiah 18:4, warren ? – karma Mar 3 '17 at 14:35
  • @karma - I see no compelling reason to think Romans 9 draws from Jeremiah. It might. But it is not clear if it is. – warren Mar 3 '17 at 15:30
  • Yes, I also think that Romans 9:21 is not based on Jeremiah 18:4 because it's different. Thank you for the answer from Calvinist view, warren. – karma Mar 3 '17 at 16:10

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