20

It seems that there is some form of hierarchy within the Trinity.

For example, these passages seem to indicate that the Holy Spirit is subservient to the Father and Jesus:

John 14:26 (NIV)
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 (NIV)
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

Also, it seems that the Father has control over Jesus:

Matthew 26:39 (NIV)
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

My understanding is that the Trinity is three persons in one God. Therefore, each person in the Trinity is equal to the other two. Yet, the verses above seem to indicate that there's a hierarchy.


Is there a hierarchy (and my previous understanding flawed) or is there a deeper understanding of what's going on in those verses above?

I'm seeking a Mainstream Protestant exegesis and viewpoint on this issue.

closed as primarily opinion-based by curiousdannii, Dan, KorvinStarmast, Ken Graham, bruised reed Oct 11 '17 at 8:44

Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.

16

It's a role-delineation, not a "hierarchy" (at least, not in the way it is used in common English).

God has distinct persons making up His one self - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

They have distinct roles, as revealed in the Bible (more I'm sure can be added):

4

Yes. There is a hierarchy in the Trinity.

Bible scholars distinguish the relationship of the Trinity between ontology (nature, attributes) and function (role, job).

FUNCTIONAL SUBORDINATION

The three persons are not equal in function.

John 13:16 (ISV)

Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, a servant isn't greater than his master, and a messenger isn't greater than the one who sent him.

1 John 4:14 (ISV)

We have seen for ourselves and can testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 15:26 (ISV)

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father— the Spirit of Truth, who comes from the Father—he will testify on my behalf.

ONTOLOGICAL EQUALITY

The three persons are equal in nature.

Matthew 28:19 (ISV)

19 Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

Philippians 2:6-11 (ISV)

6 In God’s own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping. 7 Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant’s form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be, 8 and lived in all humility,

Reference:

http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/40398

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/psfuncsub.html

  • 6
    This could really use some external sources showing the link to mainstream protestant interpretations. Other than that, good effort. – wax eagle Jul 30 '13 at 15:53
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    Welcome to Christianity.SE, Radz Matthew Co Brown. I echo @waxeagle's comment - this might make for a start of an answer, but where are you sourcing from? How does this add to the already given (and accepted) answer on the question? – warren Jul 31 '13 at 14:33
  • I think there are two users named Radz Matthew Co Brown. I assumed that they belong to the same person, so I accepted the edit made by Radz Matthew Co Brown. If the latter is a different person, then I'd have rejected the edit, because it'd be an attempt to radically change the original answer. – Double U Feb 14 '15 at 15:04
  • @DoubleU Yes. I am also the same user. I already contacted CSE to merge the two to become one. – Radz C. Brown Feb 14 '15 at 16:17
1

There is NOT a heierchy to the trinity. This is considered a heresy known as Subordinationsim by both the Roman Catholic and Evangelical churches. This was discussed and determined to be a heresy in the 3rd century A.D. and is considered to be a type of Semi-Arianism which was denounced by the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea.

The reasoning for that is this: In order for a member of the trinity to be subordinate or lesser-than another member, they must not be of the "same substance" as another member. Were they of the "same substance" then there would be no hierarchy because the members of the trinity would equal.

The debate in the 3rd century largely centered around what kind of "substance" God and Jesus were. Arius started out stating that Jesus was of a "different substance" than the father (That Jesus was not God). Many church fathers posited a similar argument that Jesus was not of the "same substance" but of a "similar substance" (This was Semi-Arianism which included, but was not limited to the Subordinationists).

Ultimately, the council decided for numerous reasons that Jesus needed to be of the same substance in order to be savior and messiah. One important reason is that if another member is less than God the Father (for example) who is perfect or just or merciful, then by virtue of being subordinate to or lesser than God the father, Jesus would be less than perfect, less than just or less than merciful (for example) and this led to the council's consensus after exhaustive discussion.

There is however a type of subordination called "relational subordination" a type of mutual submission in which one member of the trinity yields or defers to the other not out of a lesser status or some sort of hierarchy, but out of respect as a peer (for lack of a better word) having equivalent status.

We have this sense of respectfully deferring to a colleague when we value their experience and have a high respect or regard for that person. Similarly, we may defer to the will of our spouse out of love and respect for our wives, and the deferment of wills you cited in Matthew and John are simply relational subordination or mutual submission.

  • Lets look at an analogy: 1+2=3 Here we see that each number is distinct, has a different value, but is of the same essence (all are numbers, and all are necessary pars of a whole, the equation) If we invoke the concept of relational subordination here, I see no theological problem with admitting a hierarchy at all. In fact, this approach helps us greatly to illuminate the divine Logos with the simplest of mathematical expressions. We can take the numbers, 1,2,3 and insert them as placeholders in the Scutum Fidei – Robert Lockett Oct 9 '17 at 12:33
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    @robert I converted your answer, mostly, to a comment. Answers should standalone if possible. The person whose answer you're commenting on won't be notified unless you comment directly on their answer and you need a little more reputation on the site to do that. – Peter Turner Oct 9 '17 at 17:49
0

Hierarchy does reference order but it does not reference value. The value of each person of the trinity is equal. What the Bible reflects is unique characteristics and relational contingencies within the Trinity. For example Jesus says:

John 5:19 ....Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me

John 15:26 … the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father…

Because of these relational dynamics we have access to God:

Ephesians 2:18 For through him (Jesus Christ) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father

Value within the Eternal Economy is significantly different than the World’s Economy:

Matthew 5:3-11 Blessed are the poor in spirit…Blessed are they that mourn…Blessed are the meek…Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness…Blessed are the merciful…Blessed are the pure in heart…Blessed are the peacemakers…Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness…Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

If in hierarchy we mean order, then there is an order within the Trinity. If subjectivity through a hierarchy denotes lesser value then this is not true within the Godhead.
This is illustrated within the marriage union. While a wife is subject to the husband this does not hold that a wife or a mother is of lower value than a husband or father:

Ephesians 5:22-25 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord…Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it

Here we see the one that is subject (wife) is worth the husbands life!

-2

It seems that most of us echo the teachings that have been passed on through the ages.I feel that scripture points to a definite hierachy within the Trinity.Scripture points to the fact that Jesus was sent to draw us back to the Father.Our worship is to the Father and our prayers should be addressed to Him as when Jesus taught His disciples - "Our Father which art in heaven.Hallowed be THY name.THY kingdom come, THY will be done ..." The death on the cross was Jesus being obedient to the will of the Father -"Father remove this cup of suffering from Me - not My will but THY will be done." The decision was made by the Father and the Son was obedient to the will of the Father. Jesus Himself says, " For the Father is greater than I am." The Holy Spirit seems to take instruction from the Son - " I will send the Holy Spirit." The oneness of the Trinity is a oneness of thought and mind.

-2

As to the hierarchy, shouldn't we simply believe what the word says? If we were to interpret scripture by the world's standards, yes, the boss would be the most important or greater than his employees.. However the Kingdom of God teaches us the greatest are the servants. We know the Father is the head over Christ 1Cor. 11:3. Furthermore, just because the persons of the Godhead have different roles, positions, and attributes, it doesn't inherently reduce their equality or assign a higher status to them. The economy of God is not run as a democracy. In human terms it lives moves and breathes as one. We know that it was the Father who sent His only Son to reconcile the world to Himself. Since the world was not reconciled to the Father, it was not to the Son or Holy Spirit. It was the Father who said, let us make man in our own image. There was no discussion or focus group input. They always agree because they are of the same essence. There is a part of this discussion which seems to me is is woefully lacking. The bible teaches God the Father spoke and created all things. Gen.1:1 Then the Son made all things. Gen.2:4 – 3:24; John 1:3; Col. 1:16,17. Mankind sinned and became enemy's of God. So God sends His Son Jesus to pay the price and free us from the wrath of God. Rom.5:9&10. After His death and resurrection Jesus ascends on High and sits down at the Father's right hand. Then the Father tells the Son He will put all things under Him. Afterwards, Jesus executes God's wrath upon the ungodly and collects the children of God whom were given to Him. All heaven breaks loose in celebration. God the Father highly exalts Jesus high above every name, principality, ruler, dominion and power. Every knee in heaven and earth bow before Jesus. All things are given to Jesus and placed under Him, However, Jesus turns around and presents everything back to the Father. 1Cor.15:24-27. Then the Son will be made subject to the Father who put all things under Him. 1Cor. 15:28. So God creates the world, through His Son who knows He is making it for himself. Man sins and the Father sends His Son to redeem us to Himself. Jesus is faithful and through His shed blood by His resurrection reconciles us back to the Father. He is then pleased and rewards the Son by putting all things in heaven and earth under His rule. After the Son has completed putting all things under Himself, He gives it back to the Father albeit accepting the privilege to rule over it with the saints for Him. So, if we want to get into the mental gymnastics of, if Jesus is God, why would God highly exalt Him and put all authority under His Feet? He would already have it. Why would everything and person bow down and call Him Lord? If He was equal to the Father as we understand equality, they would already be doing it. The scripture is abundantly clear that because Jesus was obedient to the Father in all things including going to the cross to pay our debt, the Father is going to highly exalt Him and elevate Him to a position He could not have had before. Otherwise all of what the Father is planning to do for Him, would be a sham. How can you receive something you already have? I submit that ones position in a heavenly hierarchy does not dictate position, status, equality or change the quantity of the essence of the one and only true God. Respectfully

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