2

One big difference between the Eastern and Western churches is the idea of original sin, Instead of "original sin" the Orthodox Church holds to "ancestral sin" which has been described to me as centering around the idea that nothing God makes is inherently evil. The OrthodoxWiki article Original sin says that

"In the Orthodox Church the term ancestral sin (Gr. προπατορικό αμάρτημα) is preferred and is used to define the doctrine of man's 'inclination towards sin, a heritage from the sin of our progenitors' and that this is removed through baptism."

The first line of the Wikipedia page on Pelagianism states

"Pelagianism is a Christian theological position that holds that the fall did not taint human nature and that humans by divine grace have free will to achieve human perfection."

If we are all created good simply with the ability to sin or even a proclivity to sin but are not corrupted by sin then wouldn't it be possible for someone of their own will to not sin? Is that not simply Pelagianism?

7
  • 3
    I'm not Orthodox, but the answer here seems to be in the definition of ancestral sin. It is an inclination towards sin that is removed by baptism. Wikipedia's definition of Pelagianism is not accurate. Pelagians believe that human perfection is achievable without divine assistance. All Christians believe that human perfection will eventually be achieved through Divine grace by believers, though not in this life except by special graces.
    – jaredad7
    Commented Nov 21 at 16:00
  • @jaredad7 I understand that, but how can someone be created imperfect but not guilty? If this is the case and I must have the imperfection removed by God, regardless of my own personal sin, then I am born guilty from Adam, am I not?
    – babbott
    Commented Nov 21 at 16:48
  • 2
    I am Catholic, and that would be the Catholic understanding of original sin, that there is a kind of guilt transmitted by descent. I do not know what an Orthodox Christian would say.
    – jaredad7
    Commented Nov 21 at 17:24
  • @babbott We are all born imperfect, but until we do something wrong we are not guilty.
    – Wyrsa
    Commented Nov 22 at 10:56
  • @babbot Perhaps the better question would be, How could someone be created imperfect and be guilty? Commented Nov 22 at 21:26

2 Answers 2

2

Peace be with you. Short answer at the bottom.

The doctrine of ancestral sin and pelagianism only appear superficially the same as you have presented them. (especially considering the wikipedia article is very generalized)


Concerning Ancestral Sin

Here is a real life example of how ancestral sin does not make you guilty be default.

If you were born from the family of Hitler, you would not be guilty of genocide. You would only be "associated" with genocide due to the actions of someone in your bloodline.

Similarly all of humanity is "associated" with sin due to the actions of Adam and Eve.

So just like "Alexander Hitler" is forever tainted by the actions of Adolf, we are forever tainted by the actions of Adam & Eve. Alexander cannot really live without the consequences of someone else's actions looming over his life. This is true for us as well, the consequences of sin was "death" and "separation from God" and these consequences loom over our entire life.

Now Alexander can attempt to be a good person, but he cannot ever restore his family name to one that is not reviled. And the same is true for us, we cannot correct the stain on human nature that Adam gave us.

Fortunately we have God to help us. Jesus with the dual nature of being fully Human and fully Divine has corrected this stain. He has allowed us to have a personal relationship with God again. (We can call God "Father", before this was not possible)

Without going into detail, there are other questions that address this, God has corrected the consequences of sin through His only begotten Son.

In conclusion... Alexander or any of us are faced with choices where we can attempt to be virtuous or not. Alexander could "change his last name" or he could live with it and be a virtuous man. The same is true for us... we can "run away [from our problems, from God]" or "take on responsibility and seek God"


Concerning "Isn't it possible to simply not sin?"

The answer is yes. The Theotokos is accepted to be sinless.

Is it hard to believe that the Theotokos did not sin? If we consider this from a merely human, logical, and rational point of view it is indeed difficult. On the other hand if we consider this question in the context of the history of salvation, and eternal life in God’s kingdom, it will be easy to accept. The incarnation of Christ and the deification of man was God’s plan of salvation from all eternity, “the mystery which hath been hid from the ages” (Col. 1:26). Who and what did God the Father want the woman who would give birth to His Son to be? Could it be other than the highest of all creation, ever-virgin, and sinless. This is so logical, this has to be. -Monastery of St. Tikhon of Zadonsk

While we do believe the Theotokos had no actual sin, she was born, as were all of us the descendants of Adam, with the effect of sin on our human nature.

In the writings of St. Silouan the Athonite we read: "In church I was listening to a reading from the prophet Isaiah, and at the words, 'Wash you, make you clean,' I reflected, 'Maybe the Mother of God sinned at one time or another, if only in thought.' And, marvelous to relate, in unison with my prayer a voice sounded in my heart, saying clearly, 'The Mother of God never sinned even in thought.' Thus did the Holy Spirit bear witness in my heart to her purity." -Archimandrite Sophrony (Sakharov), Saint Silouan the Athonite, p. 392

But wait how? How to not even sin in thought?! It seems impossible, but there is more detail to be had regarding this matter.

"Mary was held in admiration by all the people of Israel; and when she was three years old, she walked with a step so mature, she spoke so perfectly, and spent her time so assiduously in the praises of God that all were astonished at her and wondered...She was so constant in prayer, and her appearance was so beautiful and glorious, that scarcely anyone could look into her face...And this was the order that she had set for herself: From the morning to the third hour she remained in prayer; from the third to the ninth she was occupied with weaving; and from the ninth she again applied herself to prayer. She did not retire from praying until there appeared to her an angel of the Lord from whose hand she used to receive food; and thus she became more and more perfect in the work of God. Then, when the older virgins rested from the praises of God, she did not rest at all; so that in the praises and vigils of God none were found before her, no one more learned in the wisdom of the law of God, more lowly in humility, more elegant in singing, more perfect in all virtue. She was indeed steadfast, immovable, unchangeable, and daily advancing to perfection...She was always engaged in prayer and in searching the law...." -The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, The Writings of the Fathers down to 325 A. D. p.371 of the 1956 edition

Please note that Apocryphal texts are not considered heretical within the Orthodox Church, they are considered the texts that are supposed to be read in private, instead of within the church.

At this point St. Palamas points out that our Most Pure Lady while dwelling in the temple had "unceasing holy prayer" (which is what Orthodox are supposed to attempt to do) At this point Mary was entirely focused on God.

I can continue on here, but that would be an entire separate topic. With many more quotes and references.

The Theotokos was sinless, but still tainted by her Human Nature. She was the best a Human could be, even though that is not enough she is still the most exemplary christian role model other than Christ Himself.

The Theotokos still needed a savior.


Concerning Pelagianism, the last of the "Great Heresies"

The heresie is concerned with the nature of humanity, with the regards to the fall and free will. Which ends up with the question, is salvation a matter of God's will or the free will of humanity? Does God merely make an offer of salvation that humans beings can choose to accept or reject, or does God actually save people?

The root of the error of Pelagius is an overly simplistic understanding of sin; in fact he had no idea of sin as such, only of sins, individual and separate acts of disobedience to God’s good Law. He taught that every man is created like Adam, free from sin and equally capable of choosing either good or evil. He denied such a thing as an inborn bent to sin, and attributed the observable fact that everyone sins to the force of bad example. Not only that, but he really attached no weight to the question of human moral character; yet this is a vital point, for our moral choices are not isolated acts of a will that is balanced between good and evil, but acts of a person who has a history, preferences, desires, and moral bent. If, on the other hand, sin is a matter of individual and separate acts of the will, and people sin because of bad examples around them, then virtue is also a matter of individual and separate acts of the will, guided by good examples.

This, in Pelagius’ teaching, was the function of the Scriptures. The Law tells us what we should do, and the Gospel shows us the good example of Christ’s obedience. It is ‘good news’ because it tells us that we can keep the law after all, not because it is the unveiling of a righteousness which is from God as a free gift. He even taught that some Biblical characters, like Daniel, had lived free from sin all their lives.

The inner logic of this false position was that it was not only possible, but absolutely necessary, for people to cease from sinning altogether. Having thus ceased from sin, a Christian would be acceptable to God in his own right.

While he said that Christians need the grace of God for salvation, in reality he redefined the grace of God to mean the free-will that God gave all people and the gift of the perfect moral law and example of Christ. The grace of God was in other words a matter of gifts that were common to all mankind.

This is not the same as the Orthodox understanding of Ancestral sin and the consequences of it.

It was St. Augustine who was the main opponent of Pelagius. Whereas Pelagius was one of those people who have very little sense of sin, and had been a monk from an early age, Augustine had the bitter memories of an early life filled with sin, and mourned that he had sought God so late in his life. The result of this was that he had a very vivid sense of the sinfulness of man and the corresponding greatness of God’s grace, while Pelagius did not; this is one of the reasons that Augustine’s Confessions is one of the great spiritual autobiographies.

"All good things come from you, O God, and from my God is my whole salvation," (St. Augustine, Confessions 1.6.7).

Pelagius saw all children as born innocent and pure... but Augustine wrote

"children are innocent only because they do not yet have any physical strength; their minds are not innocent" (Ibid 1.7.11)

This points to the ancestral sin taint on all of humanity. A most difficult thing to deal with. It is interesting to see how the Theotokos and Pelagius both were given ideal circumstances to avoid sin being given a religious "head start" and yet despite that Theotokos did not sin in thought, while Pelagius is an amazingly "great" heretic.

Anyways... most of the refutation of the Pelagius heresy is found in Romans. 3:10-19, 5:14-19, ... and other verses elsewhere.

You didn't really ask for a full history of it, so I'll stop here.


Short answer:

Orthodox Church: We are "infected" by the sins of our fathers and mothers, we also suffer the consequences of their sins, this is why we need to be cured/saved.

Catholic Church: We are guilty of the sins of our fathers and mothers, that is why we need saved.

Pelagius: We are not guilty of the sins or affected by the consequences of our fathers and mothers. We can become righteous to God.

The Theotokos would appear to fulfill the requirements of Pelagius, but She still needed a savior.

14
  • The Orthodox Church does not teach that sin is a disposition, such that Joe is not guilty of Adam's transgression but Joe will, himself, assuredly transgress? That Joe absolutely will fall short of the glory of God once he becomes able to make choices? In short that it teaches that living without committing sin, while unlikely, is theoretically possible? Commented Nov 22 at 13:50
  • The Orthodox Church teaches that Christ saves us from the consequences of sin only? Commented Nov 22 at 13:53
  • @MikeBorden There are 2 things where the english word sin is used, one is to refer to the verb of performing a sinful action. The other is the state of sin, that is to say separation from God. The Orthodox church understands sin as a "state of being" as well as that we are all responsible for our own actions, sinful or virtuous.
    – Wyrsa
    Commented Nov 22 at 14:17
  • @MikeBorden From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Let us sum up the main points. The work of salvation belongs entirely to God. It is God through Christ and the Holy Spirit, who has the divine power to rescue us from the forces of sickness, evil, sin, death, and the devil. It is God through Christ and the Holy Spirit who alone provides justification, forgiveness, and new life to sinners who come to Him with faith. And God provides salvation as a most amazing and unceasing gift to all sincere seekers.
    – Wyrsa
    Commented Nov 22 at 14:18
  • 1
    @jongricafort Your position is interesting and your comments are interesting as well. The original question tag is "Eastern-Orthodox" and the question is about the Orthodox Church doctrine. So while I appreciate the details you have... they didn't ask about catholic belief. I only mentioned it "tangentially" in my answer.
    – Wyrsa
    Commented Nov 25 at 8:21
0

Pelagianism was a western heresy that was not condemned as such in the East. Meanwhile, Orthodox doctrine on human nature has never been formally condemned by the Western church, nor has the Eastern church condemned the Augustinian doctrine of original sin. So whether Orthodox doctrine crosses the line into Pelagianism is a matter of opinion.

According to Orthodox Wiki

How this {the first sin} is interpreted is believed by many Orthodox to be a fundamental difference between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Western Churches. In contrast, modern Roman Catholic theologians would claim that the basic anthropology is actually almost identical, and that the difference is only in the explanation of what happened in the Fall. In the Orthodox Church the term ancestral sin (Gr. προπατορικό αμάρτημα) is preferred and is used to define the doctrine of man's "inclination towards sin, a heritage from the sin of our progenitors" and that this is removed through baptism.

Augustinian doctrine, on the other hand, holds that humans are depraved and incapable of resisting sin without God's grace. Clearly Orthodoxy is closer the Pelagius than Catholicism is, but Pelagius seems to have been more optimistic than the Eastern fathers were. Any inclination to sin could be overcome by exercising one's free will in accordance with Christian conscience.

Historically, Orthodox anthropology was not condemned by the RCC as Pelagianism. This might be considered to be a happy accident. But in the end it is a theologoumenon, a doctrine which may be accepted or rejected without falling into heresy. There is certainly no appetite in either denomination to waken this particular sleeping dog.

3
  • 1
    The evil one has already caused a massive schism in the visible Church. That dog's not sleeping... it is dead and gone. Good answer.+1 Commented Nov 22 at 21:31
  • Inclination towards sin, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not remove thru baptism, it's called concupiscence, even St. Paul showed he is struggling towards inclination to sin. Concupiscence can only be removed thru Eucharistic Life, that's why Jesus won't compromise this teaching, even if all the Apostles leave Him. Baptism removes the stain of original sin but not the concupiscence or inclination towards sins. But concupiscence is not a sin per se, only if we satisfied the inclination. -Romans7:15 Commented Nov 22 at 21:56
  • Your link to "newadvent" for "not condemned" and I quote "As a result he was not only excluded from ordination, but his six theses were condemned." That is to say... The pelagian heresies are canonically anathematized by the 108th-116th canons of the council of Carthage (419). Your claim that it was "not condemned" appears to be false? All the orthodox info on it says that this heresy was dealt with in the council of carthage...
    – Wyrsa
    Commented Nov 25 at 8:26

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .