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(i) If I am in pain, who is liable for that? Me or God?

(ii) If I eventually manage to relieve my pain and achieve some prosperity in life, who is credited for that? Me or God?

(iii) If I am liable for my own pain, why am I not credited for my own success? Or, am I?

(iv) If I am liable for my own pain and credited for my own success, why should I pray to God to relieve my pain? Is it so that he always try to put me in trouble(forgive me God)?

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Is this a genuine question? Is seems a bit like... argument bait. Just saying... – Marc Gravell♦ May 5 '12 at 15:07
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This (series of) question(s) assume(s) a false premise: That only myself and God may be responsible for pain and/or success. These are hardly the only options. – Flimzy May 5 '12 at 15:50
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@BBROY: We pay for the actions of others all the time. Any time anyone wrongs you, you suffer the consequences of another person's actions. – Flimzy May 5 '12 at 17:21
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This question also assumes the false premise that there must be liability at all for pain, which assumes that all pain is somehow "bad," which is a position that doesn't hold much water. – Flimzy May 5 '12 at 17:24
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@BBROY: It sounds like you're basically asking "Why do bad things happen to good/innocent people?" am I right? – Flimzy May 5 '12 at 17:46
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2 Answers

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Question:

  1. If I am in an automobile accident, in which I had, against the warning and advice of the manufacturer and against the compulsion of the state, not worn my seat belt, and I am injured, who is liable - me or the manufacturer?

    The obvious parallel here is that biblically speaking, God started out by warning us against sin, but we did it anyway. If there is pain and suffering, it is not always God's fault. That said, sometimes bad things happen because of the choices of others - the analogy could be to th person hit in a drunk driving accident- but the analogy holds, sometimes liability is neither God's fault nor our own.

  2. Even secularists are hesitant to say that success is ever entirely the credit of the doer. Franklin Roosevelt achieved great success, but is that success solely his, or do his parents deserve credit for that as well? Would Mitt Romney be able to run if his father hadn't been wealthy (although Romney parleyed his privileged birth into financial success of his own) or connected?

    I don't know if you are in the West or not, but the simple fact that you have access to the internet tells me that you have been privileged more than at least 3 billion people on this planet, and more than just about anybody from any other time period in history. If you are successful on the web, is that because of you, or is it not that you stand on the shoulders of giants?

    As Christians, we tend to believe in a tension between a God who is all loving and all just. We also have a tension between our own part in our salvation and God's (See Calvinism and Arminianism if you don't believe me). The point is that there is a faulty premsie to assume that any one person is entirely to blame or to praise. Especially when one considers that God, in his mercy and desiring his children to grow, purposely allows trials and temptations (James), ordeals and success (Ecclesiastes), and everything in order to both show his love and allow for his children to grow on their own.

  3. Why do you assume a binary position when life is more subtle?

    Truly, if you want a religion in which personal success is both celebrated and recognized, Christianity is the one for you. Muslims respect the ummah (the body of believers) over the individual. Hindus say it is merely your fate and Buddhists reject personal exaltation as deviation from the Middle Way. Confuscians exalt the parents, more than the individual. Atheism says that man is but dust, and when he thence returns, will reap no reward for his labor or success in any event.

    Christianity, on the other, celebrates each person as made in the image of God, destined for son-ship, and capable of doing great things. Indeed, Psalm 8 asks, 'What is man that thou has made him just a little lower than the angels?' Genesis 11 says that God sees man as capable of challenging God. If any religion says there is a role for man to boast of his own accord, it would be us - and yet as Christians, we learn that God deserves the Glory as well.

  4. I think it should then be obvious, the answer to your question is this: Is it not proper to thank God for the position in which you find yourself, and ask for grace for the ability to do your part?

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If Mitt Romney inherited a lot of money from his father, this is absolutely a privilege. And that privilege is offered by God. So in that case, Mitt Romney can not be credited for his wealth, God should be credited. Now, there may be examples of millions of children in USA who inherited their father's wealth. But, how many of them achieved the position where Mitt Romney currently is? So, if Mitt Romney becomes the president, he can be credited for 50% of his success. Now, I was talking about somebody like Abraham Lincoln or George Washington who became president of USA from absolutely nothing. – BROY May 5 '12 at 17:24
Why would I be hit by a drunk if I have done no sin? If a new-born child dies of cancer, who is responsible for that? Certainly the child is not responsible. But why should he suffer. Some will say that, it may happen for his parents' sin. Then, why should a child suffer for a sin that he didn't commit? Isn't that an injustice from God(forgive me God)? – BROY May 5 '12 at 17:25
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My point with the drunk driver is that it could be the "fault" of someone other than God or "me." it could just be happenstance. In any case, we live in a fallen world - a world with sin that God may or may not have intended. Regardless of whose "fault," however, it is clearly not the thing which God most desired. So to blame Him for what he didn't necessarily want is a little bit of a non-sequitur – Affable Geek May 5 '12 at 17:51
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As to the sick child, Jesus actually answered that one directly in John 9. The disciples asked, "Who sinned, this man or his parents?" Jesus replied, "Neither. But rather he was born blind in order that the glory of God might be made manifest," whereupon Jesus healed him, and annoyed the Pharisees in the process. I know it sounds harsh to say, but when bad things happen, it wise to remember that we don't really know what God has planned. It may simply be that God needs to occasionally remind us how privileged we are. – Affable Geek May 5 '12 at 18:12
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Re atheists: we take our joy and blame in this life, and (speaking more personally, since their is no "doctrinal position") I hope to simply leave the place a tiny bit better than I found it - that is reward enough. – Marc Gravell♦ May 5 '12 at 18:46
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First of all, you seem to answer yourself from the question i and ii. "who is liable for that (pain)" and "...manage to relieve my pain...". You mention you, God, and you leave out the devil. Yes our sins cause inconveniences in our lives. But apart from that, sometimes when you have done nothing wrong, the devil comes along himself. If you put the bible aside, you will never understand the spiritual warfare and how you "manage to relieve "your" pain". When you were a kid, you were so stubborn to your parents at home but you still stayed in school, not because you were so brilliant but because they continued to pay your kindergarten fees (when you haven't asked them to).

If you created something, say a robot, using all your knowledge in science to empower this robot, but in this case, the robot functions and has human qualities (in your image). You would be jealous if this robot gives credit to himself for any accomplishment, and not you, the maker. Then a jealous friend (enemy), comes up with the desire that this robot gets jammed up in the system, interrupting its functions and purpose. He puts things in the way to make the robot suffer, only to make the robot lose trust in you. And this makes your enemy happy. When things are bad, you would want the robot to have faith that his/her/its maker is there to guide and protect. So you try to prove to your jealous enemy that your robot will remain as loyal to you and continue to give you credit amidst all the inconveniences, even if it blames you for them.

First of all Christians believe in the 2 entities existing in the world; good and evil. The latter caused a stain in God's plan for a perfect world. This caused the first couple to be sent out of the Eden paradise and brought to a world now stained with sin, destruction, chaos (including natural disasters and those beyond understanding), a world where these forces have been at war right from the early days of creation up till now.

The war is not us against God, neither is it between us and the Devil, it is between the Devil and God fighting. Who are they fighting over? Mankind, in the center! They both fought and boasted over Job, whether he will continue to give credit to God and remained faithful if his conditions were harsh. God created all things, perfect and beautiful for his glorification. Satan did not. Losing the battle in heaven, the Devil, also a jealous and unfaithful one, is a god has come to reside in the world and rules over it, he is in charge. How do you expect the world to be?

Our free will does not mean our own power and might. It is our desire to allow who to take control over us, the will to go which way, the will to allow who to help us. We are of God's image but by default in sin and most attracted to worldly things, which are evil-infested. The devil's aim is to win the human race and turn all against God and sending man, His wonderful creation, to destruction. He also has power that is why he is able to bruise the heel of Jesus.

Genesis 3:15

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed. It shall bruise thy head and thou shall bruise his heel."

He has the power to make us believe that our Creator is not the loving and faithful God He claims and therefore does not deserve the credit.

There is something we need to note carefully about Job's account. This is a man described as faithful to God. Can we say he was liable to all the pain he went through? Who was really responsible? But the bible says this about him. Job 1:21-22

"...In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly."

This does not mean Job, in his pain, kept quite. As emotional and human as he was, he complained bitterly to God, HE DID NOT BLASPHEME. He cursed the day he was born in Job 3:2 downwards. He questioned God because he did not understand what happened in the spiritual warfare between God and Satan. So God at last answered him in chapter 38:1-3 (NIV)

"Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm, He said: Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question and you shall answer me."

Job 40:8

"Will you really annul my judgement: Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?"

When you are afflicted, do not be judgy. Rather be strong and ask for strength in the Lord to shield you against the evil one and to keep you going. Be proud of yourself and celebrate the success as commended in Ecclesiastes 8:15 but I will end with this also for you. Matthew 5:45

"...for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the on unjust." This is Jesus telling us to be kind like God does. Like our parents who still showed love even when we were stubborn kindergarten kids. Know whom real credit is due.

Also check for answer in the post "Why did God come down so hard on Job"

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I would be careful about making it sound like God and the Devil are matched opponents. That is dualism, and is fairly soundly rejected. Remember, God created the Devil, and God has already defeated him. He still has power, but God is as much his superior as he would be ours. – Affable Geek May 6 '12 at 22:27
@Affable Sure, well noted. I was only trying to highlight what the devil is able to do, establishing himself on earth. Of course bruising the heel cannot be compared with that of the head. But point well noted. – Nok May 6 '12 at 22:58

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